[Ideas] Next Mod: Balkans

[Sebidee]

Dang don't see how to remove misspelled post... I will compile sources. I've been researching Balkan units for the last few weeks but have to group everything together. Mostly historical references direct from source and some historians' published works. I'll go through my history and find the best stuff.

Thank you Falcor! Anything you can find would be a great help. +rep.

[metro 553]

what bout Thracian short swords or Orsydian heros

[Abot_]

Here's some good stuff I found about Thracians (for Odryssians and Getae)

(Warning: big images)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sebidee]

Excellant Abot!!!! That is simply outstanding!!! Where did you get these?

[Abot_]

It's from this book by Christopher Webber. There is also more information about the different units of Thracian armies in text form that I can post if you would like.

[Falcor]

Just to clarify I have been researching Odrysian Kingdom mostly and came upon that Sica thing in passing and and religions of OK, Getae, Triballi mostly. Definite things I can say are they preferred night fighting and that may be true of most or all. The in-game falx is pretty much a Rhophaia and as such does too much damage. Falx vary in curve and at least have a pronounced hook in the tip third of the blade, some even are shorter and even more sickle like. Rhomphaia is mentioned being used in a spear formation enough I'm sure it is accepted by all historians. They used clubs, sica, Xiphon, kopis or falcata. I'll show you a Mod by Squire Ewok he hasn't updated that has great stuff.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...rysian+kingdom
I found a video of a Rhomphaia being used and I'll find comparative falx to make my point on that.

[Falcor]

Note the bottom which is unique to Thracian hoplites. The thing is hoplites and phalanx like Macedon had, long spears are different and hoplites should use swords if it makes sense to and most sword fighters with shields had a throwing spear or two. Hoplite are just anti cavalry not the main force and Rhomphaia improve falx like cavalry fights but suck for anything else in that formation because they can't swing close together.
This is also a good site: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=263647.15

Illyrians are less common for illustrations and artifacts and Sicarius/ Sicarii are associated with Jewish revolt against Rome. Considering the preference of night battles ambush units make sense anyway. Four wheel chariots have been found in a tomb (Region of Odrysian kingdom) so they very well could be in other factions in the Balkans.

[crawe1]

Note the bottom which is unique to Thracian hoplites. The thing is hoplites and phalanx like Macedon had, long spears are different and hoplites should use swords if it makes sense to and most sword fighters with shields had a throwing spear or two. Hoplite are just anti cavalry not the main force and Rhomphaia improve falx like cavalry fights but suck for anything else in that formation because they can't swing close together.
This is also a good site: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=263647.15

Illyrians are less common for illustrations and artifacts and Sicarius/ Sicarii are associated with Jewish revolt against Rome. Considering the preference of night battles ambush units make sense anyway. Four wheel chariots have been found in a tomb (Region of Odrysian kingdom) so they very well could be in other factions in the Balkans.

I love that armour!

[Falcor]

Okay here are Rhomphaia, almost straight. You can't do this with a falx. You can see the length and reach advantage here but they had less cutting power. They were used in Byzantium though too so the must have been good.

[Falcor]

Mahairas, similar to falcata and kopis but more severe bend. Also I found the tomb was a carriage not chariot, not that it is out of the question. Also what I wrote on phalanx and hoplites wasn't clear enough. Hoplites generally have shorter spears except certain factions this is addressed in some mods. I really like squire ewok's spear men though and I'm hoping your units compliment champloo's and maybe provide a better horse stopper than noble spears or raise falx men's melee defense because based on the light armor priciple. I'm not sure but If melee defense and offense work like a hit chance modifier then the weapon damage could stay the same but adjust to defense a little for base level falx. Just based on play experience the falx looks good in stats but under performs against sword bands because they can lop or cut arms easier. The Balkans had the best Falx so it wouldn't be unfair to other factions.

[Falcor]

I mean like a new falx unit maybe between the first and the noble ones since they take forever. If you could explain how melee attack/defense, armor and weapon damage and missiles impact each other I'd know what I think is missing to balance them better. Sure I want a sword type but a middle period falx is missing and upgrades don't help enough. I'm guessing it is low melee def, but the falx is a counter weapon to hook and pull and guid spears to miss then hit backs and heads so these numbers make no sense to me.

[Sebidee]

I mean like a new falx unit maybe between the first and the noble ones since they take forever. If you could explain how melee attack/defense, armor and weapon damage and missiles impact each other I'd know what I think is missing to balance them better. Sure I want a sword type but a middle period falx is missing and upgrades don't help enough. I'm guessing it is low melee def, but the falx is a counter weapon to hook and pull and guid spears to miss then hit backs and heads so these numbers make no sense to me.

Well I am not sure exactly how attack/defence, armour and weapon damage work but I have worked most of it out. Armour and weapon damage are the basis of attack and defence. A unit's defence stat will never fall below their armour value and their attack stat will never fall below their weapon damage value. Actual attack and defence I think are more of a random factor all though the higher the they are the more effective they generally are, this randomness makes it possible for weak units to kill strong units but with a very low chance. When attack is higher than defence it reduces hitpoints and when the hitpoints reach zero the unit dies.

Shields do two things, they add to the armour stat and to the defence stat. Some weapons, such as clubs, Javelins, Axes and Rhompaias also have armour piercing stat which mean they ignore a certain amount of the enemy's armour.

I'm not sure how that applies to the falx but maybe you can figure it out

By the way, thanks for all the help both of you. Abot I would love to hear more from that book and Falcor I would love to see more stuff from pintrest. You will both be getting a mention in this mod.

[Falcor]

There are more like those illustrations on pinterest, I'll find a good board that has illustrations and artifacts.

[Abot_]

Here's the rest of the info about the army (and coincidentally a picture of the same armor that Falcor posted):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sebidee]

Unbelievable Abot. That has given me tons of ideas for Thracian units. They definitely need more cavalry, light and medium melee cavalry and maybe a semi elite skirmisher cavalry like tarantine vavalry. Also we could significantly increase the quality of their skirmishers and even add heavy javelinmen. Judging by what you posted I suppose infantry would be their weakness but that wouldn't stop us from adding a couple of light to medium melee infantry.

Is there any chance you have the next page on Thracian tactics?

[Abot_]

You know I may as well just give you the entire pdf, I'm sure you would find some of the other stuff useful as well. There's plenty on the specifics of the Thracian soldier like dress, weapons, armor, helmets, and it's only ~50 pages long.

link

[Sebidee]

I can't believe stuff like that is free on the internet. That is great Abot.

I have a question about the sica. There is no sica model in game and since I don't like importing models I figure I will have to use another weapon in its place. I figure either a kopis of falx comes pretty close. I could maybe try to rig something with textures but the result there would be sketchy.

[Abot_]

On page 33 it mentions that the Thracians did in fact use the kopis, which was somewhat close to the sica in shape and size. The falx wouldn't be as close because it's two handed and too long.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

On page 33 it mentions that the Thracians did in fact use the kopis, which was somewhat close to the sica in shape and size. The falx wouldn't be as close because it's two handed and too long.

Hey there Abot and Falcor

Thank you very much for your feedback, and we will be taking them on aboard.

Please also post your suggestion in this thread for feedback/critiques, what you would like to see, and what we should avoid should there be any mistakes.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...itiques-thread

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nd-Suggestions

Also great sources, I like Opsrey Publishing, they are seriously good books for research.



We are looking for researchers, and any sort of research will be fine, just don't copy and paste!!

[crawe1]

I'd love to see the following units:

Odrysian Kingdom

Thracian Chosen Warriors - an elite rhomphaia unit that has stats roughly equal to Thracian Nobles but is less well armoured (i.e. leather or light linothorax armour instead of scale/bronze). Basically a melee unit that slots in between the normal warriors and the nobles in terms of pricing.
Thracian Chosen Peltasts - an elite peltast. Still lightly armoured, but well trained in melee and armed with either a sica, kopis or axe.
Thracian Tribesmen - a light, cheap melee unit similar to the Illyrian coastal levies. I'd give them a variety of weapons to suggest their scavenger aspect - axes, clubs, a few swords, etc.
Thracian Tribal Levies - a light, cheap spear unit similar to the cheapest Illyrian spearmen.
Thracian Spearmen - a fairly decent spear unit like the Illyrian thureos spearmen.
Thracian Hoplites - basically a hoplite with a Thracian flavour. In terms of equipment, I would make it similar to the Greek Militia Hoplite but maybe less disciplined and with a higher attack.

Ardiaei

Illyrian Warriors - a dangerous but lightly armoured melee unit armed with sicas.
Illyrian Chosen Warriors - a more heavily armoured melee unit armed with sicas. Leather armour and better stats than the normal warriors listed above.
Illyrian Heavy Axemen - a well armoured axe unit (either good linothorax, chainmail or bronze armour).

Getae

Chosen Falxmen - I would keep the falxmen unarmoured. However, the stats for these guys should be very high. Kind of like the German berserkers. A very powerful shock unit.
Axemen - an all purpose melee unit armed with an axe and maybe some sort of leather armour. Basically a decent and reasonably priced unit that can form the backbone to the army.
Chosen Skirmisher - an elite skirmisher armed with a sica and with enhanced melee.

For Tylis, I would give them the Thracian Tribesmen and the Thracian Hoplites listed above.