Calling All Modders!!! Help UndyingNephalim With Balancing the Mod!

[Sir Aroun]

Here's the deal. Mostly everything is ready, except I have not balanced the costs of buildings and units with these new techtrees. Frankly, it will take me weeks if not months to accomplish that. Also frankly after four years of staring at these text files I'm beyond sick of messing and editing them, less so replaying the freeform campaign over, and over........ and over. So we have two options here:

A) I spend until December doing nothing but balancing the new costs .
B) I release the new version tomorrow and have people mod the living daylights out of everything and I'll just include the best ones in the next release.

I really want option B.

In the future I'd also like to include a person who knows these files inside and out to do all the text work for me. I'm seriously beyond sick of it, if I look at another descr_ or export_ file my eye's blood vessels will pop. I gets old after doing it for years. I strictly want to just do models and animations from this point on, and just pass that on to a person who can include it all through editing files. - UndyingNephalim

I am making this Thread as a metting place for modders on this forum to help UN with "OPTION B"

Update:

What I need:

- Modder who knows how to edit battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt file. I will send you models and textures for new units. I expect you to know where to place these models and textures and create entries for new units in battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt

- Modder who knows how to edit export_descr_buildings.txt. I will send you icons of new buildings. I expect you know how to name these icons and where to place them, as well as how to create new entries for buildings in the export_descr_buildings.txt file.

- Someone who knows how to edit any of the files in the "Text" Folder. I need you to write my descriptions of units and buildings that are created by the previous two modders, unless of course they know how to do this task. - UndyingNephalim

[Eldren]

I can be a tester. And give my input as to what I notest and what I think needs done.

[UndyingNephalim]

What I need:

- Modder who knows how to edit battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt file. I will send you models and textures for new units. I expect you to know where to place these models and textures and create entries for new units in battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt

- Modder who knows how to edit export_descr_buildings.txt. I will send you icons of new buildings. I expect you know how to name these icons and where to place them, as well as how to create new entries for buildings in the export_descr_buildings.txt file.

- Someone who knows how to edit any of the files in the "Text" Folder. I need you to write my descriptions of units and buildings that are created by the previous two modders, unless of course they know how to do this task.

[Eldren]

What I need:

- Modder who knows how to edit battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt file. I will send you models and textures for new units. I expect you to know where to place these models and textures and create entries for new units in battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt

I can do this task. But it would be nice if I was not the only one.

[Sir Aroun]

What I need:

- Modder who knows how to edit battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt file. I will send you models and textures for new units. I expect you to know where to place these models and textures and create entries for new units in battle.modeldb and Export_Descr_Unit.txt

- Modder who knows how to edit export_descr_buildings.txt. I will send you icons of new buildings. I expect you know how to name these icons and where to place them, as well as how to create new entries for buildings in the export_descr_buildings.txt file.

- Someone who knows how to edit any of the files in the "Text" Folder. I need you to write my descriptions of units and buildings that are created by the previous two modders, unless of course they know how to do this task.

Cool, can you pin this tread?

[tedster1995]

Two questions
- do you need these people to dedicate a certain amount of hours to doing this or are you quite flexible about that?
- also is this just for HTW or for the sub mods as well?

[Sir Aroun]

Unit and building costs/upkeep is the main priority if I am understanding you right Nephalim

[tf_]

In terms of balancing, I think it would be best to first spend some time playing the updated campaign, to get an idea of each faction's situations. They'll probably have changed since the December update. We can then take note of what's clearly unbalanced and start with that.
If it seems like Lanayru can get all their buildings very quickly, for example, we can then see if that makes sense lore-wise (resource-rich area, they have the money to spend?) and how it affects them in the campaign (surrounded by 3 strong factions, they need it). So maybe they should get buildings slightly cheaper, or leave it as it is if it seems to work.
That's not a brilliant example, but it's all I could come up with.

For unit upkeep, similarly, we need to consider:
1. The faction itself and the unit (Typically low upkeep faction? Is it a low or high quality unit?)
2. The economy of the faction (How many units should they be able to afford? Might involve changing base tax rates for settlements)
3. At the same time, balancing that against other factions so that one doesn't have a significant advantage
Now that I've written it out, it seems like a massive job to have to do for every faction.
To make it more achievable, I think those first two things should be done first with each faction separately, and then balancing would come after as fine-tuning.

Although no idea where to even start in terms of actual numbers. It'll probably come down to just assigning arbitrary costs to each unit and altering them as necessary. The testing involved would take ages though: you'd need to start a new campaign and play about 20 turns to see if the upkeep for Zora Infantry is appropriate.

[Jakeford]

Remember guys, this isn't just balancing, he wants somebody who can do all of the coding for him.

After Undyingnephalim gets his helper(s) does this mean we won't be able to say Undyingnephalim is a one man team anymore?

[tf_]

Remember guys, this isn't just balancing, he wants somebody who can do all of the coding for him.

True, but they're arguably separate jobs.

[Son of Osiris]

To balance the Mod we need someone to be responsible for the final message.

Everyone gives an opinion about this, we can’t just be sending ideas, we actually need someone, one or two people coordinating all of this and in the end they decide the way to go and what changes should be made. Someone open minded and with enough experience in the game would be perfect for this.

[Sir Aroun]

To balance the Mod we need someone to be responsible for the final message.

Everyone gives an opinion about this, we can’t just be sending ideas, we actually need someone, one or two people coordinating all of this and in the end they decide the way to go and what changes should be made. Someone open minded and with enough experience in the game would be perfect for this.

For the "final message" that can be coverd by UndyingNephalim himsell. What we really need is just people who have the time and skill to do this.

[SirMark9]

General Idea for Balancing (Essentially, Balance Overhaul)

I propose that we dedicate our efforts toward the Freeform Campaign as the focus for balancing. The Hyrule Historia and Custom Battles can be rebalanced in their own way without having to touch upon the “core” statistics.

In addition, I believe we should start focusing on units first by creating an “average” unit for the different unit types. So, Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Archers, Cavalry, are examples of unit types. Remember that unit types are not necessarily restricted to what the editor states and instead of the units overall role. After creating a baseline, we begin adjusting stats to reflect faction trends and further tweak the numbers to fit the intended role of the unit itself. Afterwards, it becomes a matter of refining the numbers until we have balanced units.

However, as units are just one part of the equation, we also need to work on the economy alongside the Tech Trees. I personally would focus on units first and then slowly begin tweaking economy to reflect the stats, but that is merely my suggestion.

Unit Recap
1: Focus on the Freeform Campaign
2: Define Unit Types and create the “average” or baseline for this type. Also define the tiers of each unit type.
3: Assign “Unit Types” and the tier to every existing unit.
4: Adjust stats to meet faction trends.
5: Adjust stats to reach the intended purpose of the unit.
6: Refine numbers until balanced with the rest of the components.

Tech Tree Recap
1: Adjust costs and build time to meet faction trends
2: Adjust costs and build times to reach the intented purpose of the structure
3: Refine numbers until balanced with the rest of the components.

So, if we went to focus on units first, we need to have a definite list of unit types that affects all of the playable units in the Freeform Campaign. In addition, it may be a good idea to also have additional tiers for each unit type as unit types can reoccur in a faction roster.

Using Hyrule as an example...

Spoiler for Click Me!: 

Soldiers

Town Guards -- Spearmen // Militia
Swordsmen Recruits -- Light Infantry // Basic
Mounted Recruits -- Light Cavalry // Basic
Hylian Infantry -- Light Infantry // Advanced
Crossbowmen -- Ranged Physical // Basic
Castle Guards -- Spearmen // Advanced
Hyrulean Knights -- Heavy Infantry // Basic
Ironclad Elites -- Spearmen // Elite
Triforce Vanguards -- Spearmen // Special

Siege Weaponry
Repeater Crossbow -- Ballista
Hylian Trebuchets -- Trebuchet

Exclusive?
Flail Knights -- Thrown // Advanced
Mounted Hyrulean Knights -- Heavy Cavalry // Advanced

Heroes (May be inaccurate!)
Princess Nylin Zelda I -- Heavy Infantry // Hero
Princess Yanera Zelda II -- Ranged Physical // Hero
Princess Mahrala Zelda III -- Heavy Infantry // Hero
Princess Oraiya Zelda IV -- ??? // Hero
Princess Tetralyna Zelda V -- ??? Cavalry // Hero
Rauru -- Heavy Infantry // Hero
General Kazakk -- Spearmen // Hero
General Akazoo -- Spearmen // Hero

======
Unit Types:
Spearmen
Light Infantry
Heavy Infantry
Light Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry
Ranged Physical
Ranged Magic
Giant (Solo Units)
Ballista
Trebuchet
Catapult
Cannon
Mortar
etc...

Unit Tiers:
Militia
Basic
Advanced
Elite
Hero

Remember that what I have listed in the spoiler are merely suggestions that can be improved upon. However, I feel that categorizing everything should be our first goal before we start messing with numbers.

Lastly, I did a quick run-through with the wiki and written down the "faction trends" (their "strengths, weaknesses, and abilities"). Within the following spoiler I was writing up a more detailed explanation, but I decided against it and simply attached what I got finished if anyone was interested.

So, with lots of text present in this post, I'll stop adding to it. I guess the next task is to categorize each unit in the Freeform Campaign for each faction provided we go with this suggestion.
What hole did I just dig for myself?...

Super Condensed List of Faction Trends

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler for Archived Information: 

Faction Trends (Scrapped, just read the Super Condensed List)
After the baseline is established, we will look to the overall trend of each faction. Using the “Strengths, Weaknesses, and Abilities” of each faction (somewhat ignoring Tech Trees which will likely be a mistake on my part), I have written up ideas for each faction in regards to units.

Kingdom of Hyrule

For my purposes, I will consider the Kingdom of Hyrule to be the baseline faction. Their traits include being the dominant empire on the campaign map but disliked by most other factions.

Their tech tree will be considered baseline as well, featuring a generalist attitude that requires upgrades for maximum potential.

Gerudo

Gerudo focuses on speed and mobility as well as the skill of their archers. Overall, the Gerudo lose defense but tend to be faster than the average unit. An important note is that Gerudo archers are the best in all Hyrule and should have stats to reflect their superior training.

Structure wise, the final costs may be similar to Hyrule. The main difference is that the Gerudo specialize their structures and the costs adjusted to reflect their specializations.

Gorons

Gorons are durable creatures that also have the best siege equipment in Hyrule. In addition, their mines are better than most other factions. Alas, the only downside the Gorons seem to have is that they suffer penalties in cold conditions (snow).

In my mind, I would equate the Gorons to be similar to fantasy dwarves. So with that as a base, the Gorons would be more durable and maybe have a slight increase in attack compared to the other races, but suffer in terms of recruitment time. As Gorons can roll around (and thus are much more mobile than Dwarves), they need some form of drawback. Alternatively, perhaps Goron units require more upkeep than normal to slightly counter their improved mine economy.

With regards to the Tech Tree, Gorons focus on synergies between structures, often requiring prerequisites or needing multiple buildings in order to function.

Zora Dominion

The Zora are a majestic people, having a higher morale than most other factions. However, they are slightly below average in terms of attack and defense in regards to physical combat. In addition, while they are aquatic and can move in water, they suffer from snowy conditions.

Regarding the Tech Tree, the Zora focus on specialization with a dependence on population. The total prices will likely be similar to Hyrule.

Kokiri

The Kokiri are numerous in number and that is where their strengths lie. However, despite their affinity for forests and quickness on the campaign map, they suffer in terms of

The Kokiri is dependent on population for their tech tree.

Gohma

The Gohma are similar to the Kokiri in terms of attacking in swarms, but that is pretty much where the similarities end.

Ordona Province
Lanayru Province
The Deku Tribes
Stalfos
Moblins
Sheikah Cadre
Darknut Legion
Lizalfos
Labrynna Regime
Fairies of Tarm
Kingdom of Ikana
Forces of Twilight
Order of the Wizzrobe
River Zora

Kingdom of Hyrule
= Baseline Faction
= Sheikah Assistance (The Sheikah can turn on Hyrule!)
+ Territory Control
+ Ordona Ally
- Suffers Diplomacy

Gerudo
- Defense
+ Speed & Mobility
+ Best Archers

Gorons
+ Defense
+ Siege Weaponry
+ Mines
- Snow Condtions
- (Drawback Ideas)
-- Lower Soldiers per Unit
-- Increased Upkeep
-- Increased Time to Recruit

Note: Goron Roll
Should the Goron’s roll be faster than baseline or simply be on par with the average movement speed? Alternatively, does the Goron Roll quickly drain stamina when used?

Zora Dominion
+ Morale
+ Aquatic
- Physical Attack and Defense
- Snowy Conditions

Kokiri
+ Numerous
+ Forested Combat
+ Stamina
- Attack, Defense, Morale

Gohma
+ Massive Swarm
= Hive Mentality (Leader Present = Unbreakable // Leader Dead = Rout)
= Specialist Settlements (Almost any unit type available, but locks out other options)
- Attack, Defense

Ordona Province
+ Best Calvary
+ Better Farms
+ Snowy Combat
+ Hyrule Ally
- Lacks professional units

Lanayru Province
+ Improved Economy
+ Improved Experience Gain
+ Aquatic
- Slightly weaker in attack and defense

The Deku Tribes
+ Varied Units
+ Ranged Attack Secondary (Almost all units can attack from range)
+ Fear (Deku Tribes can cause fear in an enemy until they realize who is attacking)
- Lower Morale

Stalfos
= Undead
+ No Morale, Stamina
- Frail Bones
= Unique Gameplay

Moblins
+ Best Charge Bonuses
+ Resource Management (Moblins are used to surviving on meager resources)
- Impetuous (Units are likely to charge without orders)
- Dim Witted (Units have problems following orders)

Sheikah Cadre
+ Invisible (Always Hidden)
+ Assassinate (One Shot Kills)
- Low Numbers
= Unique Gameplay

Note: The Sheikah will likely require further discussion with its unique gameplay mechanics of its different stances.

Darknut Legion
+ Best Equipment (specifically armor)
+ Mercenary Aid (Mercenaries like Darknuts)
- Can not run
- Dedicated to Infantry

Lizalfos
+ Fast Runners
+ Desert Combat
- Snowy Combat
- Decreased Experience Gain
- War Mongers (AI only? Mostly likely to declare war)

Labrynna Regime
+ Technological Superiority
+ Improved Cities
= Defensive Fighting (Better at fighting defensive battles than offensive ones)
= Isolated (Room for expansion but no potential diplomatic stuffs)

Fairies of Tarm
+ Massive Swarm
+ Resurrection
+ Mystery Magic
- Extremely Weak Physically

Kingdom of Ikana
+ Veteran Units (All units are experienced)
+ Immune to Elements
- Poor Starting Location
- Population Curse
= Unique Gameplay

Notes: Like other unique gameplay factions, Ikana will likely need to undergo further review.

Forces of Twilight
+ Fear
+ Air Unit Roster
- Daytime Stamina Drain
- Slower Campaign Movement

Notes: With the Twilight Civil War, this faction will likely require further discussion with balancing with the entire roster or just one side.

Order of the Wizzrobe
+ Masters of Magic
- Wizard Fraility
= Unique Gameplay

Notes: Like other unique gameplay factions, the Wizzrobes will likely need to undergo further review.

River Zora
= Unique Gameplay
+ Aquatic
- Snowy Combat

[tf_]

I'd put myself forward, but it would involve a lot of fiddling around with numbers and I know literally nothing about what that would involve. I'm not sure I have the time to commit to it either. It'll be an ongoing process however it's done though.

If you were referring to everyone giving an opinion and ideas on methods for balancing, then I'd like to put forward my method from a few posts up again. To at least see what people's thoughts are on it.

[tf_]

I took the 'final message' to mean the agreed-upon way we were going to balance the mod.

It's not entirely clear

[Son of Osiris]

Sorry if my English is bad guys I’m really trying hard to pass the message…

Yes, I agree with your method, but that is something not everyone will agree and is something that should be discussed later.

First thing first.

Of course everyone will give an opinion, some people will be more active than others but like I said someone needs to have a final word for this.
This is not someone who knows how to Mod or anything and I don’t think it should be Neph.

What I’m saying is that we need someone with enough time and experience to read all the comments about the balance and decide which ones are worth and then talk to Neph or whoever is making the changes and tell him what to change.

[Son of Osiris]

Of course that if UndyingNephalim is willing to do this that would be even better, there is no better person to do this, but like he said, he wanted some time to rest and is normal if he is not willing to read every comment and think about the balance of the game…

[Jakeford]

Undyingnephalim made it pretty clear he does not want to touch another text file, he will not be balancing the game, other people will.

[Aleatorio]

What I’m saying is that we need someone with enough time and experience to read all the comments about the balance and decide which ones are worth and then talk to Neph or whoever is making the changes and tell him what to change.

I see, you are saying the we need some kind of coordinator who would go through other´s feedback and report his conclusions to the modders.

It is a good idea, modding already takes a lot of time. If they only have to actually mod what they are told their work will be much more simple.

[Son of Osiris]

I see, you are saying the we need some kind of coordinator who would go through other´s feedback and report his conclusions to the modders.

It is a good idea, modding already takes a lot of time. If they only have to actually mod what they are told their work will be much more simple.

Exactly, thanks man. Now we just need someone that is willing to do this