Random Questions

[Son of Osiris]

I think we need a place for this type of questions that don’t fit anywhere…


Does anyone know what the Illusionists of the Wizzrobe do?

[SirMark9]

To answer your first sentence, it already exists in the form of HTW Quick Questions and Answers Thread. However, due to the number of new topics and the recent lull in questions, it has disappeared into the second page. (Just like my handy installation guide. ><)

As for Illusionists for the Wizzrobe, they have..

52 Men
15 Attack
2 Defense
2 Charge

From just throwing them into a custom battle, they seem to be normal melee units. However, I they do teleport backwards during engagements so I guess that is their special ability. This was done from the HTW Beta back from... April? (the original Dropbox files have been removed.)

[Son of Osiris]

And you made that thread, sry then, my bad.



Yes, I was seeing right now but I don’t get how that teleport is useful... I mean, they suck in melee, is said they are the most feared unit from the Wizzrobe and in the end they just keep dying and going back, makes me no sense.

[Sir Aroun]

15 attack is nothing to sneeze at. In vanllea total war only unts like this: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Heavy_Bil...28M2TW_unit%29. have 15 attack.

[tf_]

15 attack is nothing to sneeze at. In vanllea total war only unts like this: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Heavy_Bil...28M2TW_unit%29. have 15 attack.

The stats in HTW are all over the place compared to vanilla though. Each faction in vanilla has a sort of progression of units, starting at Spear Militia (5 Att, 7 Def) for example, and going up to Dismounted Feudal Knights (13 Att, 21 Def), so 15 Att can fit into that. The progressions in HTW are very minor in comparison: IIRC, Deku infantry don't ever go above 5 Att or Def, the better Labrynna units don't have any better defence than the starting units and have only slightly better attack, and as of the last update the best Zora infantry have 9 Att and 9 Def. The Gorons start about 6 points higher than anyone else in both stats, and that only gets worse over time.
I may have gone off point a bit, but the vanilla game was very well balanced in terms of units (although that may have been because quite a lot of units were available to most of the factions). It sometimes feels like the factions in this mod are forced into their roles with the stats of their entire unit pool. Obviously each one has weaknesses, but I would argue that some factions are completely restricted by them. The Deku Tribes have large units with low stats, and swarm their enemies, but they're next to the Kokiri, who do the same, but better and with cavalry. Ikana have decent units, but not good enough compared to Ordona's large units and cavalry.
I know I've gone on a bit of a rant

[Son of Osiris]

I understand your idea but I think the fact that each faction seems so unique is one of the things I love in this mod… I do agree you could have a weaker goron unit, or an elite Zora that would turn out to be very strong, but I think we already have that in some factions like the Mechs in the Labrynna. The Kokiri are weak but they have numbers and they have deku trees.

I don’t like when some factions controlled by the AI start dominating half of the map, it would be nice if the AI didn’t care much about the Zoras but have more careful with the Gohma since they are more of a threat.

But I like the challenge to know that when I’m picking the Deku tribes I’m going to have a hard time, especially when facing the Gorons, and that the type of army to beat them is not same I should use to beat the Kokiri.

[Eldren]

The stats in HTW are all over the place compared to vanilla though. Each faction in vanilla has a sort of progression of units, starting at Spear Militia (5 Att, 7 Def) for example, and going up to Dismounted Feudal Knights (13 Att, 21 Def), so 15 Att can fit into that. The progressions in HTW are very minor in comparison: IIRC, Deku infantry don't ever go above 5 Att or Def, the better Labrynna units don't have any better defence than the starting units and have only slightly better attack, and as of the last update the best Zora infantry have 9 Att and 9 Def. The Gorons start about 6 points higher than anyone else in both stats, and that only gets worse over time.
I may have gone off point a bit, but the vanilla game was very well balanced in terms of units (although that may have been because quite a lot of units were available to most of the factions). It sometimes feels like the factions in this mod are forced into their roles with the stats of their entire unit pool. Obviously each one has weaknesses, but I would argue that some factions are completely restricted by them. The Deku Tribes have large units with low stats, and swarm their enemies, but they're next to the Kokiri, who do the same, but better and with cavalry. Ikana have decent units, but not good enough compared to Ordona's large units and cavalry.
I know I've gone on a bit of a rant

Because of those different stats you are talking about. It makes the units unique, and divers. Which is but one reason why I like this game Better than the vanilla game. But there are other stats that are not listed. For example Movement speed, Attack speed, Readying/Preparing to attack, Size, unit mass/weight, special attacks, Aoe attacks, attack accuracy, Attack Range, Direction of incoming attack, special Abilities, unit A.I. reaction, Terran bones/penalty, Weather, direction of the Sun or lack thereof. And others things that play a part, but are not measured.

You actually have to study a unit, in different events and situations to know what that unit is capable of, and how you can use it to your advantage.
For example, Just compare the 2 mage units of the Zora Dominion. The Zora Mages, and the Sapphire Wardens.

1) The Zora Mages can't shoot over your units, But they have the advantage of shooting though a Lat of enemy's at once. Giving you a great way to dell with swarms.

2) The Sapphire Wardens do more damage then the Zora Mages. And they tend to kill what ever they shoot, do to the attack being a Napalm attack, which gives it the ability to burn the target. Not only that but you can shoo over your troops, and walls to hit what is on the other side. But this unit can not deal with swarms of units as well as the Zora Mages.

Every unit has it's qualities that make it what it is. Even thought the straight up stats may not seem Balanced. There are other stats that may make them balanced or unbalanced.

I think Neph Did a good job on the over all Balancing, No faction has a Absolute unbeatable advantage. Not even the Gorons.

Edit:
One last thing.

I may have gone off point a bit, but the vanilla game was very well balanced in terms of units (although that may have been because quite a lot of units were available to most of the factions).

That is because there is only one race of solders and only one race of Mount(well 3- Horses, camels, elephants), If there is only one race, that means they can use the same base model for all the units. The unit model and mount model is accountable for most of the hidden stats.

So having your game based around 4 units would allow you to balance it out much easier than having the Dozens of so different template that make up HTW. Then there is that fact that the vanilla game had a hall Group of people working on it at the same time. But we have just Neph for Final decisions of HTW.

[HTD]

<post>

Seriously, you need to work on your capitalisation.

[tf_]

I've never really seen the point in them either. I could see them maybe being used to quickly flank (with teleportation?), charge, and then rout an enemy unit, so they wouldn't be in a drawn-out fight, but that's a limited role. You'd probably be better off with another unit of either meatshields or Pyromancers.

[HTD]

They are also so squishy for a melee unit that they're usually dead if an enemy so much as looked at them funny.

[Sir Aroun]

They are also so squishy for a melee unit that they're usually dead if an enemy so much as looked at them funny.

True, You could easily justify a much higher Defence skill for them

[Son of Osiris]

I guess you can have an attack of 1000 it doesn’t matter if you are dead…

They get a bunch of arrows and they all die, and if they are lucky enough to go into melee they just keep jumping backwards and dying, yes they kill a few but clearly they are not the threat that were meant to be… I can’t really see the use for them in a battle other than being expensive cannon fodder while the other Wizzrobe forces shooting.

[tf_]

I think Neph Did a good job on the over all Balancing, No faction has a Absolute unbeatable advantage. Not even the Gorons.

If the factions were balanced perfectly, each game could turn out majorly different from the last. As it is, that's not the case. In every game I've played, the Gohma, Gorons and Ordona dominate completely. I have not once seen any of those factions lose any of their starting provinces to any faction but my own, or even lose a war. In every game the Gohma invade and take the desert, Lanayru doesn't stand a chance at taking the coast before the Gorons, and Ordona beats the Moblins.
I for one would like a bit of variety.
Hopefully the new tech trees will fix that slightly. Although looking at them, the Gohma can get Armogohma at Village level, which doesn't give me much hope.


Other than that, obviously each faction in this game is much more unique compared to vanilla, but I think there's a balance between uniqueness and limitations. Like sure, Moblins are undisciplined, and that should be reflected in their stats, but as it is most of their units are still quite bad, which doesn't make sense for a race that's supposedly naturally strong and eager to fight. It's the same for the Lizalfos.

[Sir Aroun]

If the factions were balanced perfectly, each game could turn out majorly different from the last. As it is, that's not the case. In every game I've played, the Gohma, Gorons and Ordona dominate completely. I have not once seen any of those factions lose any of their starting provinces to any faction but my own, or even lose a war. In every game the Gohma invade and take the desert, Lanayru doesn't stand a chance at taking the coast before the Gorons, and Ordona beats the Moblins.
I for one would like a bit of variety.
Hopefully the new tech trees will fix that slightly. Although looking at them, the Gohma can get Armogohma at Village level, which doesn't give me much hope.


Other than that, obviously each faction in this game is much more unique compared to vanilla, but I think there's a balance between uniqueness and limitations. Like sure, Moblins are undisciplined, and that should be reflected in their stats, but as it is most of their units are still quite bad, which doesn't make sense for a race that's supposedly naturally strong and eager to fight. It's the same for the Lizalfos.

Gorons: OP starting unit (aka Guardians) that carries their whole military but are over all balance

Gohma: that is more the fault of a very weak Gerudo.

Ordona: Actually in more resent verson versions they get pined down by the Moblins and Lizalfos half the time, The many problem is that Ikana comes in to late to stop anyone form taking the south. So the flow of the game is decided by with sides take the south first.

Moblins: could use a buff

Lizlfos: I think the tech tree will fix this.

[tf_]

Come to think of it, a lot of these problems might be fixed if/when unit upkeep is implemented (properly). It would stop the Gorons forming large numbers of stacks. I get the feeling their units would have fairly high upkeep, given their stats.
I think part of the Gohma problem is that they can get Armogohma so easily. They're good in melee and even better at range. You'd think missile cavalry might be a good counter, but apparently not. I agree that the Gerudo are weak though, they almost always get beaten.

Ikana spawning at the start of the game might act as a nerf of sorts for Ordona actually. They would presumably attack each other, which would slow down Ordona's expansion.

[Son of Osiris]

I do hope Ikana start at the beginning of the game, that is a small thing and I’m convinced it would fix the Ordona expansion.

The Gorons aren’t awlawys good because they are in the middle of to many factions, I’ve actually seen them loosing quite a few times because they got attacked by the surrounding ones and the Kokiri end up rising.

The Gohma are and they will be a big problem!

I don’t think it’s the Gerudo’s fault, the Gohma are very strong but unlike the Gorons they are in a corner of the map, and they just have 2 fronts at maximum and never get closed in very hard. Something has to be fixed here because even the Labrynna have the Tokay who slows them a bit, I hope the Wizzrobe can make something here but I’m not very convinced…

Make a new gate for Twilight in the middle of the Gohma territory, make a secret passage to the Kokiri Forest… They do need more fronts so they can be attacked more often, without that they will always dominate sooner or later in the game.

[Sir Aroun]

I do hope Ikana start at the beginning of the game, that is a small thing and I’m convinced it would fix the Ordona expansion.

The Gorons aren’t awlawys good because they are in the middle of to many factions, I’ve actually seen them loosing quite a few times because they got attacked by the surrounding ones and the Kokiri end up rising.

The Gohma are and they will be a big problem!

I don’t think it’s the Gerudo’s fault, the Gohma are very strong but unlike the Gorons they are in a corner of the map, and they just have 2 fronts at maximum and never get closed in very hard. Something has to be fixed here because even the Labrynna have the Tokay who slows them a bit, I hope the Wizzrobe can make something here but I’m not very convinced…

Make a new gate for Twilight in the middle of the Gohma territory, make a secret passage to the Kokiri Forest… They do need more fronts so they can be attacked more often, without that they will always dominate sooner or later in the game.

Based on what I've seen I think your wrong. The Gohma always take the Gerudo and then start getting bogged down. The many two problems with the gerudo is
A) a lack of a high defence skill to make up their lack of armor
B) A lack of numbers and melee survivable for their archers.

[tf_]

Do you know if Defence Skill, Armour and Shield affect the actual defence differently at all? Like does Armour reduce the damage from arrows more than Defence Skill, or Shield increase defence for attacks from that side?

Also how does the melee survivability of their archers hurt them significantly? Isn't that the case for every faction?

[Sir Aroun]

Do you know if Defence Skill, Armour and Shield affect the actual defence differently at all? Like does Armour reduce the damage from arrows more than Defence Skill, or Shield increase defence for attacks from that side?

Also how does the melee survivability of their archers hurt them significantly? Isn't that the case for every faction?

A) yes, I forget what does what off the top of my head
B) yes but most factions don't relay on their archers as heavy as the Gerudo do.

[HTD]

Do you know if Defence Skill, Armour and Shield affect the actual defence differently at all? Like does Armour reduce the damage from arrows more than Defence Skill, or Shield increase defence for attacks from that side?

Also how does the melee survivability of their archers hurt them significantly? Isn't that the case for every faction?

Side attacks ignore half of shield, missile attacks ignore defence skill, rear attacks ignore defence skill and shield, magic ignores all but half of armour.