Ideal Koinon Army?

[Perdiccas]

Hi,

I just started a Koinon Campaign.

I'm wondering what is the ideal and realistic (no uber army) lineup at end game.

thanks

[Ryoga84]

I look on the Koinon Hellenon army as 3 armies, which you can then divide in multiple armies


+Old-School Greeks (Spartan/Peloponnesiac Army)
3 Spartan Hoplites (or 2 Spartan Hoplites + 1 Spartan General)
6 Infantry units (Greek Classical Hoplites, Thorakitai and whatevere... the peloponnesiac allies)
1-2 light cavarly (only as scouts)
4 Peltastai (Periekoi)
2 Sphendonetai and 3-4 Akontistai (Helots)

+Main Greek Army (Athenian/Classic Greek Army Army)
2 Elite Hoplites (or 1 Elite + General)
8 infantry units (preferably "compact" units, like the Classical Hoplites or the Thorakitai Hoplitai)
2 cavalry units (greek cavalry or, better, Thessalian)
6 Peltastai (Greek or Thrakian)
4 range units (Slingers, Archers or Cretan Archers)

+Innovator Greek Army (Rhodian and Greek cities outside Hellas)
6 heavy infantry units (Elites Hoplites, Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai or whatever)
OR
4 heavy infantry units and 2 Greek Phalanx (when the reform kick in)
6 light infantry units (Hoplites, Thurophoroi, mercenaries and local infantry like the Lukanians)
4 range units (Slingers, Archers or Rhodian Slingers)
4 cavalry units (middle, light or heavy, depending on the environment)


by the way, I can expand even more this concept, making it in a full-fledged roleplay style

[Perdiccas]

thanks, thats helpful

[QuintusSertorius]

What difficult settings are you playing on? If the recommended M/M, you don't need a full stack. 14 units is plenty and will save you some money.

There are a lot of bargain-priced, widely available (and mercenary) Greek units who you should lean heavily on. Hoplitai (only use levy hoplites for garrisons), Peltastai, Thureophoroi. Don't overlook mercenary phalangitai to hold the centre of your line (replace with Greek Hoplite Phalanx later).

Restrict yourself to one unit of Kretan Archers per army, more is just playing on easy-mode. Sphendonetai are surprisingly effective (they have a very long range) and a unit simulates the psiloi you should be bringing along, as well as a unit of Akontistai.

Bear in mind most of your "native" cavalry is rubbish. Hippeis and Thessalians are a waste of money. Mercenary Illyrians and Curepos are cheap and readily available for light lancers. Thraikian Prodromoi are useful, though expensive. You need very high level barracks to recruit Lonchophoroi, who are very good. Hippakontistai aren't bad, as long as you don't throw them away trying to perform shock charges - they should be mopping up routers once their javelins are spent.

[Perdiccas]

thanks for the info:

i'm playing on H/M.
I was excited about the Thessalians: I'm surprised you don't think they're worth it. I wanted to use them in a companion role
I've been limiting my Spartans to 3 units per army plus the Gen. So far I don't really love them, but want to use them for historical purposes
What do you think of distinguished hoplites and heavy hoplites?

thanks

[athanaric]

Bear in mind most of your "native" cavalry is rubbish. Hippeis and Thessalians are a waste of money.

Thessalians, Lonchophoroi, and Xystophoroi have exactly the same amount of stamina. The only area where Lonchophoroi are better is their heat tolerance, which is 3 as opposed to 4 in the other two units. Incidentally, "regular" Hippeis are even more heat resistant even though they suck otherwise. I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that one of those units is awesome while the other two were crap. Fact is, they're very similar. Lonchophoroi have a shield while Xystophoroi have more armour and slightly better charge bonus and morale to compensate. Both have a very good AoR. Thessalians are actually the strongest of the three by stats, but the most expensive and with the smallest AoR. This is their only weakness. They are very much worth it if you need reliable shock cavalry and don't have access to Hetairoi or any of the eastern stuff.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thessalians, Lonchophoroi, and Xystophoroi have exactly the same amount of stamina. The only area where Lonchophoroi are better is their heat tolerance, which is 3 as opposed to 4 in the other two units. Incidentally, "regular" Hippeis are even more heat resistant even though they suck otherwise. I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that one of those units is awesome while the other two were crap. Fact is, they're very similar. Lonchophoroi have a shield while Xystophoroi have more armour and slightly better charge bonus and morale to compensate. Both have a very good AoR. Thessalians are actually the strongest of the three by stats, but the most expensive and with the smallest AoR. This is their only weakness. They are very much worth it if you need reliable shock cavalry and don't have access to Hetairoi or any of the eastern stuff.

I've generally found heavy cavalry of all types (barring Epirote FMs) to be worthless. Two charges and they're blown, which means they do very little when they charge home afterwards. Light lancers can perform the same shock role of charging to the rear of infantry, but do it five or six times, causing a lot more damage. Plus they're cheaper and easier to replace.

[Perdiccas]

what year is it reasonable to use Thorakitai?
and what about the gallic/thracian, thracian/hellene, etc... hybrids from the balkans?

[Boriak]

I've generally found heavy cavalry of all types (barring Epirote FMs) to be worthless. Two charges and they're blown, which means they do very little when they charge home afterwards. Light lancers can perform the same shock role of charging to the rear of infantry, but do it five or six times, causing a lot more damage. Plus they're cheaper and easier to replace.

I disagree. While light lancers can spend more time running around before getting tired than heavy cavalry, they die much quicker. After a charge, cavalry tends to get bogged down and they need a few seconds to push their way out of an infantry formation. The enemy uses this time to take a few swipes at your cavalry - and light cavalry gets killed very quickly while heavy cavalry can take a few hits and make it out of the formation alive to regroup for another charge.

The only heavy cavalry I mislike are the Iberian Lancearii (though I don't have much experience with Kataphraktoi so they might have a similar problem). While they are the heaviest cavalry in the western part of the map, their charges never had any real effect so for charging, I tend to use Curisi. Once I fought a heavily outnumbered battle and tipped the scales to my favour by charging with Equites Caetrati. So far, Lanceari are yet to impress me.

In my Koinon campaign, I use very little cavalry but I use them very effectively. I'm at war with Rome, Carthage, Makedonia and Seleukids at the same time. I use mainly noble Greek cavalry though no army has more than two units.

We seem to have very different opinions about the use of cavalry. It would be interesting to compare our fighting styles to see the cause of these differences.

[QuintusSertorius]

I disagree. While light lancers can spend more time running around before getting tired than heavy cavalry, they die much quicker. After a charge, cavalry tends to get bogged down and they need a few seconds to push their way out of an infantry formation. The enemy uses this time to take a few swipes at your cavalry - and light cavalry gets killed very quickly while heavy cavalry can take a few hits and make it out of the formation alive to regroup for another charge.

The only heavy cavalry I mislike are the Iberian Lancearii (though I don't have much experience with Kataphraktoi so they might have a similar problem). While they are the heaviest cavalry in the western part of the map, their charges never had any real effect so for charging, I tend to use Curisi. Once I fought a heavily outnumbered battle and tipped the scales to my favour by charging with Equites Caetrati. So far, Lanceari are yet to impress me.

In my Koinon campaign, I use very little cavalry but I use them very effectively. I'm at war with Rome, Carthage, Makedonia and Seleukids at the same time. I use mainly noble Greek cavalry though no army has more than two units.

We seem to have very different opinions about the use of cavalry. It would be interesting to compare our fighting styles to see the cause of these differences.

I usually play Epeiros, though mostly migrated to represent another faction (Pergamon, Massalia, The Bosporan Kingdom, Kyrene). My cavalry usually consists of 2 FMs (or one FM and one Mercenary Hellenistic General), and two light lancers (Curepos, Illyrioi Hippeis or Thraikioi Prodromoi). Sometimes I might take a unit of Hippakontistai or Asiatikoi Hippakontistai instead of one of the lancers. I never use more than 4 units of cavalry, and it's very rare my entire stack is more than 14 units.

I don't leave my cavalry in contact with unbroken infantry for any length of time, indeed as soon as they contact I'm already pulling them back again, so they rarely lose more than 2-3 men with each charge. I don't let them push through, I pull them back the way they came. I only make those charges when they are fully occupied at the front, so I don't tend to see any swarming of my cavalry, except by unengaged enemy cavalry. Point is, though, even if they do get whittled down to half their number (which rarely happens), they're cheap and easily replaced.

[seleucid empire]

I've generally found heavy cavalry of all types (barring Epirote FMs) to be worthless. Two charges and they're blown, which means they do very little when they charge home afterwards. Light lancers can perform the same shock role of charging to the rear of infantry, but do it five or six times, causing a lot more damage. Plus they're cheaper and easier to replace.

Epidote fms are overpowered IMO. No cavalry should have that good a charge, that much armour and still be that fast and hardy

as for other cavalry. What you say is true but in my experience I've never needed to charge 6 times with heavy cavalry. In fact I usually only need to charge once near the end of the battle. Light cavalry I use in repeated charges to weaken the enemy. Heavy cavalry I only charge once when the time is right and the battle should be over

[QuintusSertorius]

Thorakitai are supposed to be an evolution on Thureophoroi - who themselves are only just appearing in the armies of the region. I'd say not before about 230BC, possibly even not earlier than 200BC. Before that point, you should be using Thureophoroi and experimenting with phalanxes.

[athanaric]

I agree with Boriak on the cavalry. Light cavalry are killed or routed much more easily. As for cataphracts, barring bodyguard or missile units, in my experience, "Pahlavân-î Zrêhbarân" are the best. Generally speaking, Eastern heavy cavalry can be very useful. It does help though that Pahlava gets a discount on cavalry training costs, unlike KH.

[Perdiccas]

I halted my Koinon campaign... I have no love for spear wielding hoplites... give me a sarissa and some thracians

[Boriak]

... give me a sarissa and some thracians

This is why I stopped my Makedonian campaign. Too easy.

[QuintusSertorius]

I love hoplites, what always put me off Koinon Hellenon was having infantry generals. I like my FMs to be mounted, and to be the spearhead of my cavalry.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I love hoplites, what always put me off Koinon Hellenon was having infantry generals. I like my FMs to be mounted, and to be the spearhead of my cavalry.

Then I recommend this post, changing the non-Spartan Greek generals to Xystophoroi.

Change Greek generals bodyguard to heavy cavalry Xystophoroi

[Lanciarius_90]

Did anybody know how to get Spartan Hopitle and not Somatophylakes for bodyguard?

I like Hellas faction, but most of their unit are spearman/peltas hoplite infantry, they lack of fast moving shock infantry swordsman (something similar to seleucid and ptolemaic princeps).

[Ryoga84]

I think you can get them only if the FM has the "Spartiate" trait, probably is done using some script.