Israel/Palestine thread with mention to the catalysy- 3 Israeli missing teens and the mobilization for conflict

[Papay]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/wo...html?ref=world

Israel has accused Hamas for the abduction. I am wondering whether this is a prelude for a large operation against Hamas

[Geronimo2006]

I condemn this but countless Palestinian children have met this fate at the hands of Israeli shelling and bombing and Likud-Beitenau couldn't care less.

I also want to point out they were settlers. When Britain put settlers in Ulster during the Plantations it led in the 1641 rebellion to serious sectarian conflict, including expulsions and massacres. While opposed to attrocities, the government that put the Israeli settlers in the Occupied WB must share ultimate responsibility.

[Papay]

We dont know who has done this. It could be an isolated act of extremism. Regardless Israel has accused Hamas for that so we could see military operations...again. But killing another 1000 Palestinians will not offer anything

[sumskilz]

I wonder if that article deliberately left out the fact that PA security forces have been involved in the search, coordinating with the IDF.

EDIT:

"Security coordination between (Prime Minister Rami) Hamdallah's and Abbas's security services and the enemy to locate the heroes of the Hebron operation and arrest them is a stigma," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...530169,00.html

Also relevant I would think, are the 48 rockets fired from Gaza since the search began and the subsequent airstrikes in response.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...536174,00.html

[Simon Cashmere]

I also want to point out they were settlers.

I have another word for them - children, kids, teenagers.

And trying to say that shells accidentally hitting Palestinian children during warfare is somehow morally equivalent to deliberately abducting and slaughtering high school kids is appalling. So any injustice perpertrated by HAMAS against children is justified because of past grievances with Israel?

[Morbius Sire]

I have another word for them - children, kids, teenagers.

And trying to say that shells accidentally hitting Palestinian children during warfare is somehow morally equivalent to deliberately abducting and slaughtering high school kids is appalling. So any injustice perpertrated by HAMAS against children is justified because of past grievances with Israel?

What warfare? protests aren't warfare. [1]
Likewise, applying doublestandards to the mideast is what is keeping the vicious cycle alive. It is a sad and tragic that the 3 israelis died but saying their deaths were any less tragic or different than the palestinians that died in the Israeli search ops is illogical.

[sumskilz]

What warfare? protests aren't warfare. [1]

I'm pretty sure that throwing rocks was one of the first kinds of warfare. That said, the kid wasn't the target according to your source.

Likewise, applying doublestandards to the mideast is what is keeping the vicious cycle alive. It is a sad and tragic that the 3 israelis died but saying their deaths were any less tragic or different than the palestinians that died in the Israeli search ops is illogical.

Last week someone in Syria fired an antitank missile across the border and killed a 13 year old Arab Israeli kid. The media outside of Israel didn't seem to be interested in that.

[Phier]

Last week someone in Syria fired an antitank missile across the border and killed a 13 year old Arab Israeli kid. The media outside of Israel didn't seem to be interested in that.

No one cares unless Jews are involved somehow, duh.

[justicar5]

I have another word for them - children, kids, teenagers.

And trying to say that shells accidentally hitting Palestinian children during warfare is somehow morally equivalent to deliberately abducting and slaughtering high school kids is appalling. So any injustice perpertrated by HAMAS against children is justified because of past grievances with Israel?

'accidentally'...right. But yes, this is murder, as much as the settlers shooting protesters is, and those responsible in all cases should be tried for it.

[King_Porus]

And guess what Israel did to get back those 3 teenagers? They arrested 400 Palestinians and killed 5 of them. Talk about collective punishment.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel...napping-search

http://www.vice.com/read/Israel-Pale...pping-intifada

[snuggans]

And guess what Israel did to get back those 3 teenagers? They arrested 400 Palestinians and killed 5 of them. Talk about collective punishment.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel...napping-search

http://www.vice.com/read/Israel-Pale...pping-intifada

yep i'm sure they arrested the first 400 palestinians which looked at them wrong and shot the first 5 who decided to pick up a rock.

meanwhile Hamas keeps launching rockets, some of which are landing right in Gaza as per usual.

[King_Porus]

yep i'm sure they arrested the first 400 palestinians which looked at them wrong and shot the first 5 who decided to pick up a rock.

meanwhile Hamas keeps launching rockets, some of which are landing right in Gaza as per usual.

Well...do you have any evidence that suggests otherwise? They made all of these arrests in the span of about a week, so probably many of them were caught up in the wave of hysteria. The mindset you display is the kind that proves that this conflict will never end. People make excuses for one side and blame the other. Both sides have played their part in this mess and both are too stubborn to admit it.

[Lazzeer]

One would hope that out of these deaths there'd be some kind of positive developement - such as renewed rigour in attempting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately it's likely that the main result will be continued conflict, and more deaths - as pointed out by King Porus above.

[Morbius Sire]

I'm pretty sure that throwing rocks was one of the first kinds of warfare. That said, the kid wasn't the target according to your source.

He may have not been the target of it, but he was still shot.
Same goes to for another guy who was shot in the head

Mustafa Aslan, 24, was shot in the head in the Qalandia refugee camp, south of Ramallah, by soldiers who were confronted by dozens of Palestinians after entering the facility in the early morning hours. A relative said Aslan was on life support in a Jerusalem hospital.

[1]

Last week someone in Syria fired an antitank missile across the border and killed a 13 year old Arab Israeli kid. The media outside of Israel didn't seem to be interested in that.

No, it was reported and Israeli retaliated accordingly to that attack (not sure whether it was a rebel ATGM or a SAA one, but thats besides the point)
[2] [3] [4]

[snuggans]

i'm keeping an open mind, instead of, for some reason, assuming that the IDF goes into town to start arresting randoms and shooting anyone just because they felt like it and not possibly in some form of self defense, let's not pretend there aren't Palestinians who want to get at them through any means possible (and vice versa). the difference is the IDF is being closely watched by the world, while on the other hand anyone can make an attack on them through the safety of feigning as a civilian or bystander and escape judgment, plus Hamas obviously doesn't give a crap about that since they're already classified as a terrorist group and even endanger their own areas. if 282 of those arrests are people connected with Hamas as it claims, then that's good news to me. i speculate the rest would be collateral arrests, and of course i haven't found any sources on the details of the deaths, but you're basically already jumping to them being cold-blooded murders or revenge killings. says more about you, not me. there's also no information as to whether these people are still being detained or if they have already been let go.

[sumskilz]

No, it was reported and Israeli retaliated accordingly to that attack (not sure whether it was a rebel ATGM or a SAA one, but thats besides the point)
[2] [3] [4]

From the looks of these articles and based on when I looked, it seems like only the Israeli retaliatory strike brought the headlines. I'm sure at least some reported the kid's death initially, but it didn't seem to be a big deal anywhere but in the Israeli media. The airstrikes didn't happen on the same day the kid was killed, so these articles kind reinforce my perspective.

i'm keeping an open mind, instead of, for some reason, assuming that the IDF goes into town to start arresting randoms and shooting anyone just because they felt like it and not possibly in some form of self defense, let's not pretend there aren't Palestinians who want to get at them through any means possible (and vice versa). the difference is the IDF is being closely watched by the world, while on the other hand anyone can make an attack on them through the safety of feigning as a civilian or bystander and escape judgment, plus Hamas obviously doesn't give a crap about that since they're already classified as a terrorist group and even endanger their own areas. if 282 of those arrests are people connected with Hamas as it claims, then that's good news to me. i speculate the rest would be collateral arrests, and of course i haven't found any sources on the details of the deaths, but you're basically already jumping to them being cold-blooded murders or revenge killings. says more about you, not me. there's also no information as to whether these people are still being detained or if they have already been let go.

I also don't think the PA security forces would be involved if it were indiscriminate.

Here's another interesting aspect related to the story. This 17 year old Arab Israeli kid Mohammad Zoabi posted a Youtube video in three languages aimed at kidnappers (this was before the bodies were found) and the government, and now some of his family members have been arrested for making death threats against him.

The mother of Mohammad Zoabi, an Arab Israeli teen who posted a video on YouTube expressing solidarity with kidnapped Israeli youths, defended her son Wednesday and castigated those who criticized and threatened him for expressing his views.

“You know what?” she said on Tel Aviv Radio. “Maybe I taught my son to fight for justice, my son got up and had the courage to speak. In my life, I have never spoken like this. Maybe I felt it inside, but I never dared [to speak out]. He had the courage.

“Ultimately, he is a child, not quite 17, and he feels this and wants to broadcast it; he has hope that he can [make a difference], change things,” she said. “It’s truly unfortunate that he thinks he can make a difference. He doesn’t know that he lives in a world that is so cruel that it won’t let him say what he wants and what he feels.”

“He didn’t say something horrible, he didn’t make threats, didn’t blame or betray [anybody]; he said free our boys because that is how he feels, because he has Jewish friends,” she said.

Full story: http://www.timesofisrael.com/mohamma...colds-critics/

Actually if you watch his video (linked in the article), it seems pretty clear that he's been threatened for being nationalist. He sounds more right-wing than a lot of Jewish Israelis when it comes to the PA, but it shows that the story isn't so black and white.

[Morbius Sire]

From the looks of these articles and based on when I looked, it seems like only the Israeli retaliatory strike brought the headlines. I'm sure at least some reported the kid's death initially, but it didn't seem to be a big deal anywhere but in the Israeli media. The airstrikes didn't happen on the same day the kid was killed, so these articles kind reinforce my perspective.

Hmm, each article I supplied explained do explain what happened to the child and when, and they do give perspective of the IDF on the matter.They might not have the extra/intense exposure that the kidnappings had, but they still considerable coverage. (One may argue that because the kidnapping were jewish, they received much more attention than an arab kid being killed)
So I may not agree with your perspective. To each their own, I suppose.


------------

There will never be peace. Look at this way; Israel is surrounded by nations and by people who want Israel and all Jews to be wiped off the face of the earth. Israel does what is does for its very continued existence.

Not including the empty rhetoric talk, who exactly are these people right now?
-Syria is busy butchering itself; and even before the civil war, the Assad regime avoided attacking Israel after the 1973 war.
-Egypt is busy sorting out the mess out of the arab spring, and they have their sights set of the MB and Hamas (closing the tunnels and what not)
-Jordan's monarchy always attempted to go the peaceful way to the point of coordinating/talking with Israelis prior to conflicts
-Hamas is barely alive and desperate enough to make a unity government with Fatah in WB
-Fatah is avoiding any armed solutions considering the beat downs they received from Israel in the past, and to avoid losing any donations from western countries.

Not to mention the Shin Bet's work and involvement in WB. So who exactly are these people right now?

[King_Porus]

i'm keeping an open mind, instead of, for some reason, assuming that the IDF goes into town to start arresting randoms and shooting anyone just because they felt like it and not possibly in some form of self defense, let's not pretend there aren't Palestinians who want to get at them through any means possible (and vice versa). the difference is the IDF is being closely watched by the world, while on the other hand anyone can make an attack on them through the safety of feigning as a civilian or bystander and escape judgment, plus Hamas obviously doesn't give a crap about that since they're already classified as a terrorist group and even endanger their own areas. if 282 of those arrests are people connected with Hamas as it claims, then that's good news to me. i speculate the rest would be collateral arrests, and of course i haven't found any sources on the details of the deaths, but you're basically already jumping to them being cold-blooded murders or revenge killings. says more about you, not me. there's also no information as to whether these people are still being detained or if they have already been let go.

So in your own words, the arrest of 118 innocents is completely fine? Just "collateral damage" as you call it? That's why the Palestinians hate the Israelis, they aren't even considered people, just possible threats. This just reinforces the hatred. Plus, I highly doubt all 282 of those people can actually be traced to terrorist activity.

[snuggans]

to reiterate, we don't know the nature of the arrests, but you were the first one to try and paint a dark picture of them, so i might as well also give what i believe is likely the case. you don't know whether the 118 others are innocents, or if they're even still being detained in the first place. but don't worry i understand your version of the events where the IDF stumbles into town to arrest and shoot randomly.

[King_Porus]

to reiterate, we don't know the nature of the arrests, but you were the first one to try and paint a dark picture of them, so i might as well also give what i believe is likely the case. you don't know whether the 118 others are innocents, or if they're even still being detained in the first place. but don't worry i understand your version of the events where the IDF stumbles into town to arrest and shoot randomly.

Whatever mate. We'll never know if any of the arrests were actually warranted, but the fact that they arrested 400 people in the span of a week over the kidnapping of 3 boys by terrorists suggests that Israel reacted quickly and without forethought. Hatred doesn't drive out hatred and God knows how many innocent Israelis and Palestinians will die from the retaliations.