How to use javelins effectibely with Legionaries?

[Cincinnatus]

Now, I understand that when Pila armed Roman legionaries attack, by charging, they are supposed to throw their javelins. Sometimes mine do, and they are very effective. And sometimes, they never throw them. I am speaking of the situation where the legionaries have not yet thrown any javelins, and still have them.

Does anyone know how to get them to throw their javelins each time they attack, (when they still have javelins)? Or what determines whether they throw the javelins or not?

Any help will be very much appreciated.

[Phil2]

I noticed that too even with hastatii.
Sometime they throw it with effective deadly results, sometime they charge without throwing them...and other times they only throw 4/5 javelins!

To me, if they are too close from ennemy they don't throw anything. For best results they need to start charging at a certain distance from ennemy, and all correctly lined up toward ennemy.
If i order them to charge/attack a new incoming unit while mouving or turning to an other direction, they don't throw or just 4/5 missiles...not that easy in middle of action.

[Damocles]

If you're at a slightly weird angle, they won't throw.

If you're a little too far away, they won't throw.

If you're a little too close, they won't throw.

If the stars and moon align, and you're on a flat surface, perfectly facing the enemy...They'll throw.

[Cincinnatus]

Thanks, guys. So basically, the enemy has to stand still, and wait for you to line up perfectly in front of them, and wait patiently for you to throw, and you have to do it at exactly the right distance, which is unknown. What a shoddy mess. This is a horrible design flaw, to say the least. I know it has been said before, but pila throwing worked perfectly in The first Rome Total War. Why CA breaks things that work and replaces them with broken failures like this system, and still has not fixed it, I cannot understand. Why the heck can they not fix it so the legions just throw when they are in range?

The DEI team did add the ability to throw at an area, but if the enemy moves, you are not going to hit them.

[TheOrangeProject]

Thanks, guys. So basically, the enemy has to stand still, and wait for you to line up perfectly in front of them, and wait patiently for you to throw, and you have to do it at exactly the right distance, which is unknown. What a shoddy mess. This is a horrible design flaw, to say the least. I know it has been said before, but pila throwing worked perfectly in The first Rome Total War. Why CA breaks things that work and replaces them with broken failures like this system, and still has not fixed it, I cannot understand. Why the heck can they not fix it so the legions just throw when they are in range?

The DEI team did add the ability to throw at an area, but if the enemy moves, you are not going to hit them.

Just because it doenst the work you think it should doenst mean it is a design mistake.

The enemy has not to stand still. Two units -which both got javelins- charging against each other will use their javelins.

The way javelins work is fine, not perfect but it works. You cant expect a solider to throw a spear 15meters (or more) while standing still. Have you ever done spear throwing? I did. It is diffcult and without taking a run-up it is even harder. Also that the unit have to be in a correct formation to use javelins is kind of obvious, no one likes to get hit a spear thrown by a buddy of yours. Besides that the unit have to switch weapons, which should not that easy during combat.

About the DeI team ability they added, well do you expect an enemy to stand still while you throw pilars? Practice with it and you will adapt to unit speed, angle etc. Everything a solider also have to learn.

I see your point but had my struggels too, but as soon as i played for while i got used to it.

[Damocles]

Just because it doenst the work you think it should doenst mean it is a design mistake.

The enemy has not to stand still. Two units -which both got javelins- charging against each other will use their javelins.

The way javelins work is fine, not perfect but it works. You cant expect a solider to throw a spear 15meters (or more) while standing still. Have you ever done spear throwing? I did. It is diffcult and without taking a run-up it is even harder. Also that the unit have to be in a correct formation to use javelins is kind of obvious, no one likes to get hit a spear thrown by a buddy of yours. Besides that the unit have to switch weapons, which should not that easy during combat.

About the DeI team ability they added, well do you expect an enemy to stand still while you throw pilars? Practice with it and you will adapt to unit speed, angle etc. Everything a solider also have to learn.

I see your point but had my struggels too, but as soon as i played for while i got used to it.

It's buggy and finicky. That's all there is to it no matter how you sugarcoat it. It works maybe one time in five, and the other four times, it still triggers the cooldown.

Meanwhile, the AI never uses it, but their charge-throw goes off perfectly every time with barbarian units.

[TheOrangeProject]

It's buggy and finicky. That's all there is to it no matter how you sugarcoat it. It works maybe one time in five, and the other four times, it still triggers the cooldown.

Meanwhile, the AI never uses it, but their charge-throw goes off perfectly every time with barbarian units.

Show me evidence in that the charg throw always "work" for the AI, because i see them not "working" all the time. I didnt sugarcoat it, i showed arguments against "all is buggy" threads, so if you want to prove me wrong - which i dont have a problem with - go ahead and show me some evidence.

[antred]

It's buggy and finicky. That's all there is to it no matter how you sugarcoat it. It works maybe one time in five, and the other four times, it still triggers the cooldown.

I agree, which is why, at least once I got Polybian principes and hastati, I tend to try and keep a few pila-carrying units behind the melee fight and use the throw-pila button to target an area for them to throw their pila at. This works most of the time (*1), with very good results.

(*1) In rare cases, they refuse to throw their pila even when ordered to do so via the throw-pila button (even when they're not in melee combat). I don't know what causes this ... probably another bug.

P.S. Of course this will yield even better results if used from the flanks and rear of the target unit. Still better results can be had by using the throw-pila button on a target area that is far enough from the pila-carrying unit so that they will have to walk / run a bit before throwing their pila. That way they appear to throw their pila with much greater speed and force, racking up more kills. Seriously, their pila will travel almost in a straight line with no observable arc.
IMO this effect is actually a bit excessive because when they do this, they can throw their pila a hell of a lot farther than most dedicated skirmishers can throw their javelins.

[Cincinnatus]

Thanks for the tips, Antred, I appreciate it!

I agree, which is why, at least once I got Polybian principes and hastati, I tend to try and keep a few pila-carrying units behind the melee fight and use the throw-pila button to target an area for them to throw their pila at. This works most of the time (*1), with very good results.

(*1) In rare cases, they refuse to throw their pila even when ordered to do so via the throw-pila button (even when they're not in melee combat). I don't know what causes this ... probably another bug.

P.S. Of course this will yield even better results if used from the flanks and rear of the target unit. Still better results can be had by using the throw-pila button on a target area that is far enough from the pila-carrying unit so that they will have to walk / run a bit before throwing their pila. That way they appear to throw their pila with much greater speed and force, racking up more kills. Seriously, their pila will travel almost in a straight line with no observable arc.
IMO this effect is actually a bit excessive because when they do this, they can throw their pila a hell of a lot farther than most dedicated skirmishers can throw their javelins.

[Phil2]

Just because it doenst the work you think it should doenst mean it is a design mistake.

The enemy has not to stand still. Two units -which both got javelins- charging against each other will use their javelins.

The way javelins work is fine, not perfect but it works. You cant expect a solider to throw a spear 15meters (or more) while standing still. Have you ever done spear throwing? I did. It is diffcult and without taking a run-up it is even harder. Also that the unit have to be in a correct formation to use javelins is kind of obvious, no one likes to get hit a spear thrown by a buddy of yours. Besides that the unit have to switch weapons, which should not that easy during combat.

About the DeI team ability they added, well do you expect an enemy to stand still while you throw pilars? Practice with it and you will adapt to unit speed, angle etc. Everything a solider also have to learn.

I see your point but had my struggels too, but as soon as i played for while i got used to it.

Good point, and thinking about, it seems right now.
For the flat level ground, seems obvious they need to see their target to be able to throw.

Meanwhile, the AI never uses it, but their charge-throw goes off perfectly every time with barbarian units

Not always here. As it happens to me, sometime they can't throw.
I'll look closer next time...

[Cincinnatus]

Just because it doenst the work you think it should doenst mean it is a design mistake.

The enemy has not to stand still. Two units -which both got javelins- charging against each other will use their javelins.

The way javelins work is fine, not perfect but it works. You cant expect a solider to throw a spear 15meters (or more) while standing still. Have you ever done spear throwing? I did. It is diffcult and without taking a run-up it is even harder. Also that the unit have to be in a correct formation to use javelins is kind of obvious, no one likes to get hit a spear thrown by a buddy of yours. Besides that the unit have to switch weapons, which should not that easy during combat.

About the DeI team ability they added, well do you expect an enemy to stand still while you throw pilars? Practice with it and you will adapt to unit speed, angle etc. Everything a solider also have to learn.

I see your point but had my struggels too, but as soon as i played for while i got used to it.

I never said they should be standing still while they throw, which is impossible, so I do not know why you are acting as if I did.
Here is the bottom line, as the commander, I can expect that the legionaries will throw their pila at the enemy, and will know how to do it when they are close to the enemy. The legions were trained to always thrown their pila before combat, even if they were defending, they would make a short run forward when the enemy got close enough, thrown their pila, draw their swords, and charge home. In this game, there should be no problem in getting them to throw their pila. There was no problem in Rome Total War.

There is a big problem now. Therefore, it is buggy, and a poor design decisions. I am amazed at your dexterity, that you have found a way to do it. But no one should have to work hard at getting the legions to perform such a simple, automatic function.

[Butan]

A perfect charge-throw is a bit like a perfect cavalry charge: it requires some not very intuitive conditions to be cleared, to happen.

In the case of charge-throw, I would say that it requires (in order of decreasing importance): having throwing ammunition (), line of sight to the target, charging at the maximum charge distance (not too close), throwing while the target is still in range (not too far), perfectly lined up to the target (parallel and mimicked), not having thrown recently (cooldown).

If all those conditions are cleared, your unit should throw as they charge.


I would add, when the target is a bit elevated, there is a better chance that even the last ranks fire: I sent 300 hillmen on a group of elephants once, and the 300 of them fired! Pin-cushioned the nice and high targets in one go, killing half and sending the others in a mad fury.

[meerkatology]

1. make sure they aren't being fired on by ranged weapons, if they are, they won't throw period - bug.
2. charge throw
3. immediately after they throw, cancel charge and manual throw , you can double throw like this as charge throw doens't put them on CD.

[Cincinnatus]

Meerkatology, I appreciate the tips. That is quite a bug, and explains some of why it is so difficult to get them to throw.

[Damocles]

1. make sure they aren't being fired on by ranged weapons, if they are, they won't throw period - bug.
2. charge throw
3. immediately after they throw, cancel charge and manual throw , you can double throw like this as charge throw doens't put them on CD.

And yet ironically, the Romans often threw two pila before charging into battle anyways.

[Baldos]

The main point as made by others is: This is bugged. The throwing of pila was standard tactics by the Romans....this should not require micro management by the player!

[Kuerassier]

The main point as made by others is: This is bugged. The throwing of pila was standard tactics by the Romans....this should not require micro management by the player!

That is a fine question I'd like to see answered by our much admired heroes of the modding team: Is that bug fixable? - In my opinion, the local tactical leader (centurio) should be able to order his century to send a full volley or two either in offensive or defensive situations...

[Cincinnatus]

Butan, thank you for the explanation. This really increases my understanding.

[KAM 2150]

There are two ways, have fire at will, but no throw at charge, or have throw at charge and manual throw like in DeI. Solution used in DeI allows the player to use throwing weapons both during attack and on defence.

[Zolneirz]

Fire at will would be a nightmare in RTW2. When I want my infantry to throw and charge, I double click when they're within 25m of their target. The cohort will throw reliably if they have no member legionaires in combat; this can be the space of about two men.

Alternatively you could present a static line and throw as the enemy advances, then countercharge. Place some skirmishers inside the ranks of your cohort, whatever the range the skirmishers have is the maximum range of the longest thrown cohort pila.
http://chattypics.com/files/rome2w1_9t0t535pfp.jpg