'Star Wars' discussions

[Gaidin]

His last point is the only one I also find mildly annoying. I also don't like the aesthetics of it, the guard is too wide. If they shortened them and pulled in the base to be flush with the hilt I would be completely on board. When I look at it now I get the feeling that not much thought went into it which makes me feel like it was more gimmick than well thought out design.

Engineering would be impossible. There pretty much actually has to be a small lightsaber there is the catch. If you don't have that, there might not be enough room for longsword lightsaber with the attempt to make it flush with the hilt. My bet is the fight one of the things is at least one side of the crossguard might find itself cut off much to the bad guy's chagrin. There's always pluses and minuses in any design.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Engineering? We don't need to justify the positioning through difficulties in engineering. We are talking about an already fantastical weapon that breaks many physical laws. It would have been nothing for the prop designers to make a hilt that did not have the guard protrusions. The rest is done in the computer. Which is why I get that feeling like they didn't think beyond, lets slap some small lightsabers on the sides. That or JJ has some really crappy artists working for him. Which is hard to believe because the design on most of the stuff is amazing.

[Gaidin]

Engineering? We don't need to justify the positioning through difficulties in engineering.

And yet they seem to have done so. Instead of just handwaving it away just to satisfy your laziness for absolute pure Rule of Cool. More power to them.

[DisgruntledGoat]

And yet they seem to have done so. Instead of just handwaving it away just to satisfy your laziness for absolute pure Rule of Cool. More power to them.

Oh please, you can no more tell their intent than I can. To assume they are looking at it from an engineering view point is a cop out for what is bad visual design. Maybe they did, but you cannot infer that just by looking at the trailer. Star Wars is not and has never been hard sci fi. Don't pretend it is. We're talking about something that is basically magic anyways, you don't apply engineering principles to magic. If there is a special feature that says otherwise, bravo. But if that is the case, then its poor engineering and the guard shouldn't even be there because it will be the first thing cut off. AT which point you are adding a pointless feature. If I was building the saber its the first thing I would notice "hey these could be pretty easily cut off rendering them useless." So you either come up for with a solution or get rid of them. If you want to get really into the engineering within star wars, we know that sabers are built with special crystals. I could get behind a special crystal design that splits the saber beam in three than something that looks like three sabers smashed together.

[Gaidin]

Oh please, you can no more tell their intent than I can. To assume they are looking at it from an engineering view point is a cop out for what is bad visual design. Maybe they did, but you cannot infer that just by looking at the trailer. Star Wars is not and has never been hard sci fi. Don't pretend it is. We're talking about something that is basically magic anyways, you don't apply engineering principles to magic. If there is a special feature that says otherwise, bravo. But if that is the case, then its poor engineering and the guard shouldn't even be there because it will be the first thing cut off. AT which point you are adding a pointless feature. If I was building the saber its the first thing I would notice "hey these could be pretty easily cut off rendering them useless." So you either come up for with a solution or get rid of them. If you want to get really into the engineering within star wars, we know that sabers are built with special crystals. I could get behind a special crystal design that splits the saber been in three than something that looks like three sabers smashed together.

It seems pretty easy to. Twelve years of education and experience. One larger lightsaber with two insanely small ones basically grafted onto the hilt at a 90 degree angle. Now, if a sword expert is allowed to analyze what he sees why is an engineer not allowed to based on previous technical articles and diagrams on the lightsaber? The best one being this.

[DisgruntledGoat]

It seems pretty easy to. Twelve years of education and experience. One larger lightsaber with two insanely small ones basically grafted onto the hilt at a 90 degree angle. Now, if a sword expert is allowed to analyze what he sees why is an engineer not allowed to based on previous technical articles and diagrams on the lightsaber? The best one being this.

So appealing to your own authority? Really? Okay, I'm an engineer as well. 6.5 years practising as well in mechanical and machine design, pressure system design as well as process engineering. And I disagree with you. So what now?

You seem to be ignoring the point though. You are trying to justify BAD visual design with engineering design complications. What I am saying is we are talking about super advance technology that breaks the laws of physics. So any visual design decisions can be justified by "its possible to do that." You don't need to purposefully hamstring yourself when coming up with concepts here. If they wanted to make the guard flush with the hilt they could have and they could have justified it easily.

[Gaidin]

So appealing to your own authority? Really? Okay, I'm an engineer as well. 6.5 years practising as well in mechanical and machine design, pressure system design as well as process engineering. And I disagree with you. So what now?

You seem to be ignoring the point though. You are trying to justify BAD visual design with engineering design complications. What I am saying is we are talking about super advance technology that breaks the laws of physics. So any visual design decisions can be justified by "its possible to do that." You don't need to purposefully hamstring yourself when coming up with concepts here. If they wanted to make the guard flush with the hilt they could have and they could have justified it easily.

Pressure systems? I think as the EE here in Electromagnetic systems I've got you beat when you're appealing to the computer and electrical systems of the lightsaber when you want to remove any way for there to be room for them. That's right. They take up space. You want to shove the smaller lightsabers into the hilt of the bigger one and remove the way for the bigger lightsaber to function because the crossguard sabers are in the way for the larger blade systems to have room to function. You do that, they'd be right on top of the Modulation Circuits, the Field Energizers and the Focusing Crystals of the main blade.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Pressure systems? I think as the EE here in Electromagnetic systems I've got you beat when you're appealing to the computer and electrical systems of the lightsaber when you want to remove any way for there to be room for them. That's right. They take up space. You want to shove the smaller lightsabers into the hilt of the bigger one and remove the way for the bigger lightsaber to function because the crossguard sabers are in the way for the larger blade systems to have room to function. You do that, they'd be right on top of the Modulation Circuits, the Field Energizers and the Focusing Crystals of the main blade.

Wow, you don't get it do you. Your appeal to your engineering background means nothing, especially on the internet and even more especially when we are talking about a piece of equipment that does not exist nor does it follow any actual physical laws. My point wasn't to say I had more authority than you (which is even more ridiculous when discussing lightsabers) it was that your appeal to authority was pointless.

You are arguing about fictional systems as if they are real or take up a defined space and require engineering principles to work. I'm saying if you can invent a lightsaber in the first place you can create something that is visually appealing without having to falsely appeal to fictional engineering restraints. There is no electrical engineer trying to figure this out on set. Its a concept artist and prop master. An appeal to engineering difficulties is nothing but an excuse for shoddy visual design as I have been saying all along.

But please continue on about how you being an electrical engineer makes you an authority on lightsabers. Its absolutely fascinating.

[Knight of Heaven]

His last point is the only one I also find mildly annoying. I also don't like the aesthetics of it, the guard is too wide. If they shortened them and pulled in the base to be flush with the hilt I would be completely on board. When I look at it now I get the feeling that not much thought went into it which makes me feel like it was more gimmick than well thought out design.

Thank you because that is exactly my standing.

Also the guy in the video forgets a LongSword is different then a lightsaber in theory, as crossguard made of laser is quite different then a metal crossguard. But he is not wrong Star wars is heavly influenced by japanese stuff. Akira Kurosawa Homages and influences for start, to kabuki theatre, and how darth Vader looks for instance.

Regardless its star wars doesnt need to make much sense, but to look cool, only it doesnt look that cool for me. And i quite like longswords, but this lightsaber is weird in its dimensions imo.

[Gaidin]

Wow, you don't get it do you. Your appeal to your engineering background means nothing, especially on the internet and even more especially when we are talking about a piece of equipment that does not exist nor does it follow any actual physical laws. My point wasn't to say I had more authority than you (which is even more ridiculous when discussing lightsabers) it was that your appeal to authority was pointless.

You are arguing about fictional systems as if they are real or take up a defined space and require engineering principles to work. I'm saying if you can invent a lightsaber in the first place you can create something that is visually appealing without having to falsely appeal to fictional engineering restraints. There is no electrical engineer trying to figure this out on set. Its a concept artist and prop master. An appeal to engineering difficulties is nothing but an excuse for shoddy visual design as I have been saying all along.

But please continue on about how you being an electrical engineer makes you an authority on lightsabers. Its absolutely fascinating.

Fictional systems that they've actually bothered giving diagrams for and as a world provided so-so ways of how they work. Which leaves sci-fi fans(of which I am one) a lot of fun ways of wading through and figuring things out. Not really a fight you're going to win when it's a subject I enjoy. If they'd left it murky, maybe.

[Condottiere 40K]

More convincing if they could split the beam off at an angle, making it both a guard and a catch.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Fictional systems that they've actually bothered giving diagrams for and as a world provided so-so ways of how they work. Which leaves sci-fi fans(of which I am one) a lot of fun ways of wading through and figuring things out. Not really a fight you're going to win. If they'd left it murky, maybe.

No actually, it can be as detailed as you like. It is still the same. There is nothing that says you have to have all the same system to generate the guard. Or that there is something else that could achieve it. This appeal to scientific knowledge of a saber remains nothing but an excuse for shoddy visual design. Sure various authors, artists etc have put out lore that shows how a lightsaber goes together. Great, but like I said, a new improved design could be made. Say a refracting crystal that splits the beam in three at the point that the guard is at. And you can't say that can't happen. Because it can, JJ is setting the lore now, what he wants is canon. Its how sci-fi or fantasy works. Heck you wouldn't even be able to call it a retcon as its new technology that solves a problem.

As it stands what I see is very little imagination. You describe just sticking to small lightsabers on the side which is very crude solution and also looks damn ugly. If it becomes a plot point then I am even more disappointed. Because it means they developed the plot then designed the props to fit the specific plot point. I swear if a lightsaber goes through that guard and cuts off his hand I might lose my mind.

[Gaidin]

No actually, it can be as detailed as you like. It is still the same. There is nothing that says you have to have all the same system to generate the guard. Or that there is something else that could achieve it. This appeal to scientific knowledge of a saber remains nothing but an excuse for shoddy visual design. Sure various authors, artists etc have put out lore that shows how a lightsaber goes together. Great, but like I said, a new improved design could be made. Say a refracting crystal that splits the beam in three at the point that the guard is at. And you can't say that can't happen. Because it can, JJ is setting the lore now, what he wants is canon. Its how sci-fi or fantasy works. Heck you wouldn't even be able to call it a retcon as its new technology that solves a problem.

As it stands what I see is very little imagination. You describe just sticking to small lightsabers on the side which is very crude solution and also looks damn ugly. If it becomes a plot point then I am even more disappointed. Because it means they developed the plot then designed the props to fit the specific plot point. I swear if a lightsaber goes through that guard and cuts off his hand I might lose my mind.

If you as an engineer need to say they used a different design to do the same exact thing for which would only require a smaller power source for the electronics, you got some serious problems. And you damn well know it what's more. That's an implied concession right there.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Dear lord, we are talking about a fictional, physics breaking piece of sci-fi hardware. It could be a damn perpetual motion machine and still be perfectly viable. This thing doesn't need to follow rules or principals. It can do whatever they want it to do and the reason they give cannot be argued with as they are the people creating the lore.

This boils down to SEARCHING for a reason for a poor decision made in advance. No different than the fanboy making excuses for bad plot points based on obscure information that was in no way considered by the screen writer. To sit there and actually argue that it is the only way it could be done is just silly.

[Gaidin]

Dear lord, we are talking about a fictional, physics breaking piece of sci-fi hardware. It could be a damn perpetual motion machine and still be perfectly viable. This thing doesn't need to follow rules or principals. It can do whatever they want it to do and the reason they give cannot be argued with as they are the people creating the lore.

This boils down to SEARCHING for a reason for a poor decision made in advance. No different than the fanboy making excuses for bad plot points based on obscure information that was in no way considered by the screen writer. To sit there and actually argue that it is the only way it could be done is just silly.

I'm using universe official technical sources. You're using excuses to say you're right. I'm also not arguing for actual engineering principles. I'm just arguing based on what they have in their technical sources, of which I have linked. You're still using excuses. Have fun.

[DisgruntledGoat]

I'm using universe official technical sources. You're using excuses to say you're right. I'm also not arguing for actual engineering principles. I'm just arguing based on what they have in their technical sources, of which I have linked. You're still using excuses. Have fun.

Dear lord, if you haven't figured it out by now you never will. Those 'technical sources' are works of fiction, that's my point. You can't appeal to their authority as the reason for the design choice. They could easily amend that lore to have a new saber design which allows for a split beam. That is my point. THE DESIGN TEAM IS NOT RESTRAINED BY ANYTHING. Its not an excuse its a fact. You are using the fictional technical sources as an excuse for shoddy visual design. I'm saying they are not limited by it and its no excuse for not achieving something that is more visually appealing.

[Gaidin]

Dear lord, if you haven't figured it out by now you never will. Those 'technical sources' are works of fiction, that's my point. You can't appeal to their authority as the reason for the design choice. They could easily amend that lore to have a new saber design which allows for a split beam. That is my point. THE DESIGN TEAM IS NOT RESTRAINED BY ANYTHING. Its not an excuse its a fact. You are using the fictional technical sources as an excuse for shoddy visual design. I'm saying they are not limited by it and its no excuse for not achieving something that is more visually appealing.

More power to them. Like most technical people(except for you) I reassess information as new information is added. What the hell is your point? That you're going to keep making excuses and ranting? I've still got a better base of information for a vast universe I enjoyed than you do. You go keep making your excuses now.

[Derpy Hooves]

​So apparently those "side blades" are exhaust ports because the lightsaber is and unstable or something

[DisgruntledGoat]

I can't tell if you are ignoring my points on purpose to be annoying or if you are just missing them. Being a technical person has absolutely ZERO to do with this discussion nor does your knowledge of existing star wars lore. This is a movie and we are discussing the design decisions made by the art department. If you like I can fawn at your superior technical knowledge of completely fictional, physics breaking, technology. I am truly in awe of it. -_-

[Gaidin]

​So apparently those "side blades" are exhaust ports because the lightsaber is and unstable or something

Also possible, given the odd way they "come on" after the main blade does, and the odd way the blade looks. Would defer that possibility to the MechE up there that's though.

I can't tell if you are ignoring my points on purpose to be annoying or if you are just missing them. Being a technical person has absolutely ZERO to do with this discussion nor does your knowledge of existing star wars lore.

It has everything to do with you wanting it flush with the hilt but not paying attention to the fact that that would totally ruin the ability of the lightsaber to even work. I even gave you a damn diagram and explained why. Whether they're actual crossguards or exhaust ports, it just can't possibility work if you want a lightsaber.