'Star Wars' discussions

[Mayer]

Star Wars in general is sci-fi for kids basically.

Because Luke finding the smoking corpses of his stepparents who were burned by stormtroopers, Vader torturing Leia & Solo and choking everyone who failed him, Tarkin blowing up a planet and killing millions of unarmed civilians in the process is totally for kids? Let's be realistic.

I agree that stuff in Ep.VI, the prequels and the crap added by the special editions is quite childish (although the CGI series take it to a new level) but that was the result of Lucas changing his intention from telling a story to special effects, humour and selling toys in order to make more cash.

Kurtz also explains how Return Of The Jedi would have ended originally, in the outline that Lucas and he had come up with before Lucas decided to change everything to make it more of an upbeat toy-selling vehicle. Luke and Leia would have rescued Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt, but then Han would have died halfway through the film, during a raid on an Imperial base. (This is something that Harrison Ford has mentioned before as well.) The film would have ended with the rebel forces in tatters, Leia struggling with her new duties as queen, and Luke walking off into the sunset alone, like Clint Eastwood at the end of a spaghetti Western. It would have been a more nuanced, muted ending to the saga, instead of the Ewoks dancing in the forest like a "teddy-bear luau.

I really enjoyed the series when I was younger but as I grew up it just didn't hold the same interest to me. I mean I still love Empire and Return of the Jedi, but yeah the franchise as a whole is mainly geared toward younglings.

I know that when i was very young, i liked the phantom menace more than empire strikes back because of JarJar's slapstick and the actionscenes (pod-race, anakin destroying the control ship) wheras in Ep.V there were things i didn't understand and thought it was boring.
It is quite clear that George Lucas focused on a young audience while the films produced with Gary Kurtz had a more mature tone.
In comparison to Star Trek, i think Star Wars was originally a much darker and oppressive Sci-fi universe.
Instead of a crew exploring planets with a mission of building up relationships and mutual understanding, we had people trying to evade and resist a all-powerful dictatorship which stopped at nothing to sustain its dominance

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Something I never got was why are the Jedis all generals? Even the children apparently. Ashoka is a high enough ranking military leader and that disturbs me. Wouldn't actual trained officers make much more sense? I thought Jedi couldn't fight in wars or some crap, according to episode 1 anyway. And why would they even know jack crap about fighting wars?

[saxdude]

Anyone saw the new storm troopers-

[Mayer]

yes, i posted it already

Aladin? i cant say i see the connection entirely. Is it because he is darked skined and has colourfull hair? Aladin had dark hair though. Where is the princess and the Genie? lol Assuming Erza is the main character though.. im not sure that he is, 100% main character i mean.

I'm not the only one who sees similarities, if he gets a princess and a genie like supporting character, it is 100% a ripoff. Which wouldn't surprise me, Disney's Frozen is also a ripoff of the Lion King.

The clone wars as naturaly stuff geared twards kids, and as other stuff with a more mature dynamic in it.

From what i've seen it had the mature dynamic of Pokemon

Tend to disagree with that, for several reasons. First because Star wars is more akin to Fantasy in space then Scy-fy

It is science fiction with fantasy elements and a classical (albeit simple) good vs evil conflict.
Besides Stargate was also partly fantasy.

so diferent things, second, i dont see how it could work, when Star wars needs a certain epic, and a certain scale, very akin to a Space Opera.
Unless the TV Show would be high end animation like this, that i would totaly buy it.

So Star Wars is basically pointless special effects and eyewash for you.. Lucas has taught you well

As star wars goes i dont see the apeal in that to be honest.

And i don't see the appeal for these CGI children's tv series, well i just hope the movie won't take this road.

[Knight of Heaven]

Something I never got was why are the Jedis all generals? Even the children apparently. Ashoka is a high enough ranking military leader and that disturbs me. Wouldn't actual trained officers make much more sense? I thought Jedi couldn't fight in wars or some crap, according to episode 1 anyway. And why would they even know jack crap about fighting wars?

They are peacekeepers serving the republic im pretty sure phantom menace covered that. They fight as generals because the republic wished it was so.

Also why Gandalf takes charge as a general in Lord of the Rings? Leading man in battle was always a role of powerfull wizards. And thats what Jedi are, Space Wizards.
That is the basic of it.
But for realy detailed info see here
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Order
Lore wise they know how to fight in wars, since thats all they do since young is to learn this things.

From what i've seen it had the mature dynamic of Pokemon

Never seen Pokemom, im guessing you didnt seen much of clone wars either.

From what i remember Clone wars themes are often about Slavery, Torture, unethical scientific experiments, War, loss, war profitering, Political corruption, power grab, poisining children in their school Soda for example... oh there was a bombist suicide as well and other forms of terrorism....

Does Pokemom deal with those stuff?
I have no ideia.

It is science fiction with fantasy elements and a classical (albeit simple) good vs evil conflict.
Besides Stargate was also partly fantasy.

You cleary dont know what you are talking about. Stargate is cleary sci-fy, it always was, it has mythological elements in there sure, that does not make it Science Fantasy.

To make it clear to you, Science fiction is the the improbable made possible, and science fantasy is the impossible made probable.
Star wars maybe in space, but it is adventure based, Fantasy at its core, it deals in knights, queens, Princess, emperors, kindgoms, and fortress, and magic, only it is in Space. It could have been in midle earth.
it isnt Star trek, it isnt stargate, it isnt babylon five.

So Star Wars is basically pointless special effects and eyewash for you.. Lucas has taught you well

I dont get what made you to reach that conclusion. I dont think that, never did, and i dont care much about special effects. I just think Campy TV isnt the arena of star wars. Never was. I think if they ever do it, they would need to do it right, not half assed.
Stargate safe for SG1 was horrible btw. SGU had a nice tone, but it was going nowehere as plot goes.
Animation does have other advantages it is more flexible then live action so easier to make.

And i don't see the appeal for these CGI children's tv series, well i just hope the movie won't take this road.

You seem to take it personal for some reason.. well thats your problem.
Star wars will folow in its traditions of being family friendly, and have everything for everyone. Not unlike Guardians of the galaxy or marvel movies. That is my Bet.

I'm not the only one who sees similarities, if he gets a princess and a genie like supporting character, it is 100% a ripoff. Which wouldn't surprise me, Disney's Frozen is also a ripoff of the Lion King.

I dont know i dont folow Disney Cartoons, since i was 10. But if you are sugesting Disney will make star wars like they do its movies, i think that is not likely, they seem to handle the Marvel franchise rather well, and i dont see Iron man wearing mickey Ears.

[Mayer]

phantom menace introduced a lot of crap, including midichlorians
jedi training of infants is also stupid

I saw only a bunch of episodes from CW's season 1 and a few scenes of the later on youtube but what i saw didn't appeal to me.
Grievous acted stupid (and could be defeated by a teenager sigh), druids made slapstick, story was plain, characterizarion scarce and the focus was on pointless action.

To make it clear to you, Science fiction is the the improbable made possible, and science fantasy is the impossible made probable.
Star wars maybe in space, but it is adventure based, Fantasy at its core, it deals in knights, queens, Princess, emperors, kindgoms, and fortress, and magic, only it is in Space. It could have been in midle earth.

Your definition doesn't make sense, even Dune is viewed as science fiction and it has more fantasy and medieval themes than Star Wars.
And Star Trek had improbable (and sometimes silly) things too at times.

Animation does have other advantages it is more flexible then live action so easier to make.

excessive use of computer effects for the sake of it has also its disadvantages.
at least it will be toned down in the next film
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013...pisode-vii-cgi

You seem to take it personal for some reason.. well thats your problem.

And the problem of millions of other fans of the original trilogy who don't look kindly on the latest incarnations of Star Wars.
It's not my fault, only George Lucas can be blamed for ruining his own franchise

I dont know i dont folow Disney Cartoons, since i was 10.

yet, that is the targeted audience of these CGI series

[Knight of Heaven]

Well it only kicks in after season 2 to be honest. I didnt like season 1 as well, it was by far the most weird season of the series.
The thing with clone was is they had a bunch of episodes that are kiddy friendly, with those droids for example, and others more interesting wich dealt with politics, and character development.
The episodes that focused on the clones were mostly very good. The season 6 had great story archs in there from what i remember.


Then therew as the Umbara episodes wich were very good.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

excessive use of computer effects for the sake of it has also its disadvantages.

Of course, but that isnt what i was talking about.

And the problem of millions of other fans of the original trilogy who don't look kindly on the latest incarnations of Star Wars.
It's not my fault, only George Lucas can be blamed for ruining his own franchise

But i agree with this notion, i hated the prequels, as much as anyone.

yet, that is the targeted audience of these CGI series

I disagree. Its easly targeted at early teens, and above imo.
And honestly i dont see what is wrong with that.

Your characterization doesn't make sense,

Im sorry but it does. By definition science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, where science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.
Obviously what you have often is a mix of the two.
Star wars is more fantasy then it is science fiction, Stargate is more scy-fy then it is science fantasy.
In my opinion Dune is more of a mix then it is Star wars, however I consider Dune to be "Future Fantasy" if you will in its essence, not unlike Star wars. Science has nothing or litle to do with it.
They are actualy more akin then Star trek or Stargate....It's no more science fiction than Star Wars. One has the force, the other has the spice as the magic means to an end.
There is no Science at its core, I'd say it's more fantasy. More appropriately, it's science fantasy. (As opposed to science fiction) It uses the future and future technology/science to set up an epic and the rules behind the universe. The prohibition on using computers for space flight (along with it's life-prolonging effects) sets up the need for Melange and its importance. It's a plot device necessary to make the motivations for control of Arakis realistic. But in the end, it just sets up the universe. Science isn't really used to carry the story forward or solve the main problems.

Star Trek is most definitely science fiction because of how it uses science not only to set up the universe but as a way of carrying the story forward and even solving the main problem.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

In Attack of the Clones I laughed cause it looked like those infants with light sabers were going to accidentally cut someone's head off.

[Knight of Heaven]

In Attack of the Clones I laughed cause it looked like those infants with light sabers were going to accidentally cut someone's head off.

You wonder how adults are able to not cut themselfs. imagine a kid.

[Condottiere 40K]

The problem with Star Wars is that the Jedi-Sith conflict became too embedded in it's DNA.

[Mayer]

Im sorry but it does. By definition science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, where science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.
Obviously what you have often is a mix of the two.

At least you admit that these franchises do not abide your exclusive standards (advanced technology vs supernatural)

In my opinion Dune is more of a mix then it is Star wars, however I consider Dune to be "Future Fantasy" if you will in its essence, not unlike Star wars. Science has nothing or litle to do with it.
They are actualy more akin then Star trek or Stargate....It's no more science fiction than Star Wars. One has the force, the other has the spice as the magic means to an end.
There is no Science at its core, I'd say it's more fantasy. More appropriately, it's science fantasy.

So you come up with a term which was only in use between 1950-1966.. Fine, but even when Star Wars is 'science fantasy' (although science fiction can be viewed as a kind of fantasy in itself), it doesn't follow that it has to focus on exhibition of CGI effects. The original films had real actors and real locations and it worked.

Science isn't really used to carry the story forward or solve the main problems.

Science fiction does not mean that problems have to be solved with scientific drivel. And things like the deathstar are technological menaces.

[RedGuard]

star wars is not hard science fiction but it is still science fiction non the less. You can call it something else but it is no less science fiction (which by definition is anything that uses science or technology as a key element in the story)

[Knight of Heaven]

So you come up with a term which was only in use between 1950-1966.. Fine, but even when Star Wars is 'science fantasy' (although science fiction can be viewed as a kind of fantasy in itself), it doesn't follow that it has to focus on exhibition of CGI effects. The original films had real actors and real locations and it worked.

I didnt came up with anything its how they are. Nice way of not adressing the arguments about Dune that i mentioned. Im guessing its because you cant say they arent true.

Again with the CGI what point are you even trying to make? I never said i wanted something exclusively CGI or Special effects only, you are making judgments on your own accord, based on wrongly preconcieved notions of something else.
Your problem lies in thinking that the Prequels or anything after the OT lies in the overuse of CGI and special effetcs, while i think the blame lies of poor script writting, and bad directing. Is that simple. Special effects can go with good drama, and good movies.
Besides im pretty sure i was talking about animation wich is a diferent midium then live action. Your atempt to downplay it is ridiculous, if that is the case.

At least you admit that these franchises do not abide your exclusive standards (advanced technology vs supernatural)

I never said they are exclusive i said one is more of a thing then the other.... within the genre they are distint. Star wars, is very diferent then Stargate by its nature. Im sorry you are not capable of seing that. Star wars might be science fiction by defenition... im telling you its more science fantasy, then science fiction, and im not wrong with this assertion, it is an undenyable truth.
There is no magic or supernatural in stargate btw, what you have is cleary a probable history and story coming to pass. Allmost an what if scenario. Star wars isnt like that it isnt an what if, is Once Upon a time in a land far far away.
And that is the major diference of science fiction, and science fantasy. Star wars is a diferent animal, to be treated the same way stargate was, as a serielized TV show. Imo.
And its not because of the setting, its because of the main narrative.
What would deal with in a TV show? if ever made it would be very diferent then Star trek, or Stargate.
It had to be dealt, focusing on storytelling, and not in procedural serielized TV episodes, like Those shows are.
And i said im not interested in see star wars in that format, the Title doesnt tend to blend well with that in my opinion. One of the reasons they never made a TV show before more likely.

Science fiction does not mean that problems have to be solved with scientific drivel. And things like the deathstar are technological menaces.

A menace that is insignificant next to the power of the force.....
Just because its there makes it science fiction on the level of star trek? im sorry that doesnt tell the whole story, its part of a setting, of a background, while the action, and narrative is strongly similar to high fantasy and not traditional science fiction, the themes are all there, how there isnt a percieved technologic progession is one major clue in the universe for example.
There is nothing probable in Star wars universe from a scientific aspect, or very litle is.

You can call it something else but it is no less science fiction (which by definition is anything that uses science or technology as a key element in the story)

Right, science is not key in star wars im sorry. Its another prop, that fuels a setting. thats what im trying to say. Is more of a thing then it is another cleary. Its closer to Science fantasy then it is science fiction. Obviously you may call it whataver you wish. It doesnt change this constant in this title.

[Påsan]

Sic.. guys, and why the flying would Grevious be able to fight half the jedi council alone and ing win?


See thats my problem with the stupid cartoon, sure it looks cool, but it makes no goddamn sense does it? He was easily overpowered by Kenobi in the films two times, that is the bar he should be is judged after. But in the cartoon, noo he's a goddamn super-jedi for absolutely no reason.

[DarthShizNit]

Look at the end of the video I posted. You'll see Mace Windu laying down a ass beating that is meant to explain the...lackluster showing of grievous in the movie. Also, only one was a member of the Jedi Council, and there were only three of them.

Also Obi-Wan is a bad ass.

[Knight of Heaven]

It has its charm but its retarded to be honest.
Windu flying and beating droids like that, yoda taking out ships on coruscant as well very idiotic.

Fun to watch, but retarded.

[DarthShizNit]

If you say so.

I'll continue to love it.

[Knight of Heaven]

Its not that i dont like it, i cant just take it too seriously thats all.

[Påsan]

Btw Star Wars have anyway been marketed towards kids. When I saw Phantom Menace I was nine.

On the other hand, to have "smoking corpses" and such is not necessarily adverse to kids, look at 40k where they go balls in to making at horrible as possible, it's main customers are kids and early teens.

[Condottiere 40K]

It's sex where they draw the line, and blur the parts.