Anyone Good with Suebia?

[efrimblack]

I'm having immense difficulty with early campaign as Suebia. After two failed attempts at normal difficulty and a rather humiliating attempt at easy difficulty, I figured I'd finally bite my lip and ask for help. Most of my total war experience has been playing Rome or at least Hellenic factions, I'm unfamiliar with barbarian warfare for starters. On top of that the Boii seem to have access to a really good sword infantry right out of the gate and I'm stuck with mediocre spear levies and club infantry. The one time I managed to (somehow) eradicate the Boii quickly, I believe using an ambush in the pass to Istra, Then I faced a shell game of war/peace/war/peace with the three celtic factions which bordered them due to their ties. I can't press them into confederation and they distract and plague me from fighting any campaign to actually unite Suebia. I can't even afford two stacks when I hold all of the province the Boii start with, and I'm not really sure how to get over this initial hump. Normally I'd just switch to another faction or something, but I REALLY want to learn how to play this faction. If anyone has run one or more successful Suebia campaigns on literally any difficulty with recent DEI builds I'd be eternally grateful for guidance.

[efrimblack]

Also sorry for wall of text. I have been lurking on these forums for a long time but never actually posted, so I'm unfamiliar with the formatting.

[Xubarku]

I can't say I'm great, but I got decently far before switching to the Arverni, as they felt... well, more interesting. A few suggestions...

-Switch your general(s) to the heavy cav type right off the bat. Cav is practically required to win field battles with low causalities.
-Get horse pens quick. Suebi light cav is sorta meh, but they're cheap and definitely help a lot.
-Slokhonz suck, but they're dirt cheap and should be used to bolster your numbers. You probably want a center with spear levies or something tougher, especially for countering enemy generals, but a few of these on each wing to envelope is a solid plan. If they die, well, they die. If you want two stacks soon, you'll have a lot of these.
-You'll eventually want some solid sword/spear units, but with the way combat works in DEI they're actually a lower priority than you'd think. Don't stress their absence in the first 10-15 turns. Everyone else sucks, too.
-Your starting ranged units are very solid. Keep a couple javelins and a some of those insanely long ranged archers, and use them to control how fights develop. Barbs have low armor, so the archers can focus fire and destroy units fairly easy.
-Barbarians are poorly disciplined. Prioritize killing the enemy general with your javelins asap, and the battles will end fast. Their generals are also meat grinders, so send in something that won't die before you can finish them off.

As for the actual campaign map...

-Use a smaller army as bait to try to lure enemy armies out of their cities. If your main army is in ambush between the two, you'll either have an ambush or field battle. Either way, with good placement, both of your armies will be stacked against their one. Since sieges are blood baths for barbarian factions, taking out their armies before going after the city is advised.
-Confederations are easy, but not something that can be forced. Every few turns look at the diplomacy map. A lot of same blood factions will be fighting each other, and the losing faction (especially if they're fighting a faction from a different culture) can usually be talked into joining you easily when they're losing. Sometimes, you don't even need to give them a gift, they just will do whatever it takes to avoid dying.
-Trade and nonaggression pacts with the friendlier factions are vital to allowing you to survive long enough to gobble up the other Germanic factions. Don't be afraid to be too diplomatic.
-Not a tip, but a "bug" warning. If you declare war on a faction, then force them into a peace treaty/confederation really fast, it counts declaring war/ending it, and makes your reliability take a big hit. Usually it's worth it. Something to be aware of, and that I wish was done differently. Oh well.
-I came from Radious, so the one army/limited agents thing reaaaally took some getting adjusting to, but it's not that bad once you get used to it. Just pick your battles. If you play it safe by keeping your empire condensed and your war fronts limited, you'll be fine.

Hopefully some of that helps.

[Damocles]

If the Boii have a Gallic/Celtic army roster, then it's also safe to know that this particular roster is distinctly overpowered in terms of its capabilities vs its neighbors, in relation to historical capability.

Roman writers (such as Julius Caesar himself) considered the warlike German tribes far more brutal and savage warriors than the Gallic tribes, with the best Gallic tribes being the ones that lived closest to the Germans, such as the Helvetii.

Germans and Gauls actually fought quite similarly, and were of similar size, but Germans seemed to have a 'psychological' advantage against the Gauls and almost always won. Which is why the Romans preferred using German auxiliaries to fight Gauls.

In game, though, I've noticed the German roster is about, roughly right for a Barbarian faction, and the Gauls are quite superior to them.

[efrimblack]

Roman writers (such as Julius Caesar himself) considered the warlike German tribes far more brutal and savage warriors than the Gallic tribes, with the best Gallic tribes being the ones that lived closest to the Germans, such as the Helvetii.

This is absolutely why I was surprised to be having my butt handed to me by a Gallic Tribe. I expected to have at least a slight edge on them as a Germanic Tribe. Experiencing the reverse, historically accurate or not, was a bit shocking. I'm hoping that mid-late tier Germanic warriors have a bit more bite.

Xubantu - I had already been using the spear/club layout you suggested, but had neglected the hunters entirely. Using your advice I have my main stack setup with 8 units of them, and was able to decimate in my last major battle. Once the general was down they only lasted another minute before breaking on mass, it was beautiful. Trying to follow your campaign advice as well, we'll see how it works out.

Just having an edge in battles should hopefully be enough to keep me going. Thanks for the barb tips.

[Fozzie]

I made it to about turn 80 before switching to Rome at the release of 0.9. I can confirm a lot of what the others have said. The first time I played as Suebi, I played it slow, trying to build myself up. Be warned, the Boii do have stronger starting units if you let them recruit. My greatest success came from sacking their capital in Hercynia in the first turn. I took all fifteen units, marched on the city just south of the Suebi capital and captured it. That dramatically cuts the Boii's sustainability, and it gives you a second walled settlement.

Cavalry are useful, even those early scout riders. Remember that many Suebian units are experts at stealth and guerrilla deployment. Use this to your advantage. Those archers and cavalry can be kept out of the conflict as the enemy is lured toward a wall of seemingly weak spears. Even the earliest starting spear units have an expert charge defense, though. Use that to your advantage, and remember that if your units have a weak charge, they can endure an enemy charge much better while stationary rather than trying to counter charge. Those early club infantry suck in sustained combat, but they have a decent attack and infantry charge, so try flanking the enemy with them while your spears hold the line. The early javelins are incredibly effective against engaged heavy infantry, so don't be afraid to use that to your advantage.

And as usual, the best advice I can give is to practice your tactics in as many battles as possible. Practice makes perfect.

Good luck offering some souls to Wodanaz.

[efrimblack]

I made it to about turn 80 before switching to Rome at the release of 0.9. I can confirm a lot of what the others have said. The first time I played as Suebi, I played it slow, trying to build myself up. Be warned, the Boii do have stronger starting units if you let them recruit. My greatest success came from sacking their capital in Hercynia in the first turn. I took all fifteen units, marched on the city just south of the Suebi capital and captured it. That dramatically cuts the Boii's sustainability, and it gives you a second walled settlement.

This is pretty much what I do every time I attempt a Suebia campaign. I'm on the verge of giving up Barbarian factions entirely though, or at least unless somehow they become slightly easier to play in future releases. Even winning every battle, I can't recoup my losses or field as many troups as the other Germanic tribes, I'm assuming this is income buffs for the AI or something.

Even if I WAS on the same economic footing with the other Germans, there is the endless diplomacy problems, even devoting a couple of Generals to diplomacy buffs, and plying them as much as possible with money, I can NOT get the celts in the south to settle down once I kill off the Boii. Because of the crippling economy I can pretty much only field some archers to defend cities with the garrisons, and a single offensive stack, and that stack is getting too beat up to completely conquer anyone. Sooooo... yeah. Even if I continue to win every battle, I'll never win one of these wars, and I literally played this campaign all day. I was off work, so I figured what the hey.

10 hours straight, dozens and dozens of victories, about 50+ turns in, and I am still no closer to uniting Suebia or getting the Celts out of my hair than I was in turn 5. Sorry for being so verbose, I've really been going at this one. x.x

[Fozzie]

Yeah I just did everything I could not to get involved in conflict with the other Germanic tribes until I had established a decent hold over the Celts. I formed non-aggression pacts with all of the Germanic tribes except the Lugii. When I had sufficiently bolstered my forces, I attacked them. Tactical diplomacy is absolutely crucial to a solid start with the Suebi. Also, use your scout to travel the coast, and try to take a port settlement as soon as possible. Trade by sea made my income boost tremendously, and I was able to support an entire extra army. Finally, it may sound unorthodox, but I eventually made close friends with Rome, which gave me a VERY powerful ally to the south.

[efrimblack]

Yeah I just did everything I could not to get involved in conflict with the other Germanic tribes until I had established a decent hold over the Celts. I formed non-aggression pacts with all of the Germanic tribes except the Lugii. When I had sufficiently bolstered my forces, I attacked them. Tactical diplomacy is absolutely crucial to a solid start with the Suebi. Also, use your scout to travel the coast, and try to take a port settlement as soon as possible. Trade by sea made my income boost tremendously, and I was able to support an entire extra army. Finally, it may sound unorthodox, but I eventually made close friends with Rome, which gave me a VERY powerful ally to the south.

All good tips. I will try them out when I've sufficiently cooled my heels in my Rome campaign. ^_^ Thanks Fozz.