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  1. #41

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Correction - I have it working. Setting the effect scope to in_all_your_regions for both the producing building and the consuming building works. The game does the math right. I'll iron out the details. -10 x2 buildings cancels out 20 production completely. The producing building still only produces the same amount of the resource as far as I can tell, as well.

    So, that leads me back to the question on limiting a resource to a single region to restrict construction. I could not get that to work with the effect scope. I guess it could be because the resources themselves get attached to the faction after they are 'produced' by the game, but can't just be attached to, say, a region. Perhaps an effect bundle will work. So I'll be testing that next.

    So as long as you have enough horses as a resource you could build x amount of stables until you run out of the necessary resource?
    Unfortunately, yes. It still isn't able to comprehend there isn't enough of a resource, and doesn't seem to comprehend a negative amount of it at all.
    Last edited by ABH2; July 14, 2014 at 07:29 PM.


  2. #42
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Thank you ABH for testing.

    EDIT 2# : Looks like it is at least stable. Maybe there is problem in how the game engine handles trading import/export and production. And also Alec rightly pointed out it could be exploitable by player. Well Iīm writing that idea to "when is time re-check paper" and move on.

    And I was having such a good mood as Iīm finishing Icons for ports... So at least have a peek guys. In the middle behold Olive Oil/Wine/Textiles/Fish producing ports!

    Last edited by Daruwind; July 14, 2014 at 07:31 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Double post

  4. #44

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    What are the blank icons for?

    Good news for the day - I have building upkeep working with a new effect scope. I haven't gone into this problem, but if you set a negative value for wealth, at a certain level it goes haywire and you end up with crazy amounts of negative cash.

    One thing works. Setting the slot gdp modifiers for buildings under settlements (1-5) in the slot_gdp_values table from 1 to 0. But this, for some reason, cancels out resource production. As in, the game won't produce a resource.

    Creating a new effect scope from "this_building" works, however. Simply change the 'location' of the new scope to factionwide, and the game does the math correctly.


  5. #45
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Regarding wealth (and possible many other things) I would quess that we are running over some engines ranges without...CA school mistakes probably.

    One thing works. Setting the slot gdp modifiers for buildings under settlements (1-5) in the slot_gdp_values table from 1 to 0. But this, for some reason, cancels out resource production. As in, the game won't produce a resource.
    Can you check if opposite is working? If slot_gdp_values can somehow increase resource production? If I recall correctly I havenīt seen any effect which is boosting resource production. Only direct production. It would be nice to be able to add for example t mine effect which will enhance resource production from primary buildings (just say iron)...

    (only effects were for boosting food production and wealth)

    Blank Icons are hte first step. I had to try a lot of combination how much smaller I must make resource Icons and Default Icon for Ports to be able tu put them together. 70% of original, thatīs the magic. So Iīm copying them slowly time after time. We will have complete tree with every resource in short. Like Port with Wine production. From level one, through every subchain (fishing,trading,military small/large ranging from levels 2-4). In sum it is 13 Icons per resource. Itīs easier for me to produce every possible combination now then later going back and add some.

    And I like to keep every step separate so I can go back in quick and try some adjustments.

  6. #46

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    There are resource values in there for a few things. There's "gold_mining" and "silver_mining." All the resources don't seem to be there, though.

    It would be nice to be able to add for example t mine effect which will enhance resource production from primary buildings (just say iron)...
    Do you mean an effect that just increases wealth from mines? Or a particular type of mine? I'm a bit confused on what you mean. There is an effect for wealth from mines, and an effect that increases wealth from mining.


  7. #47
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    There is a lot of resources in game or region specialities. Not all of them are being used. Anyway I was thinking little too much adn being sleepy. Setting slot_gdp_values table from 1 to 0 cancels out resource productionfrom that particular buildings right? I was thinking if opposite is somehow working or if it could be use....to boost resource production from another building.

    Letīs say primary building is producing 20 units of ore. I would like effect for "mine/quarry" buildings which will boost that production by 50% or by some fixed number... thatīs where Iīm heading.

    Reason for my question was that I was looking for such a effect for some time...

  8. #48

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    I can experiment with it and what you're looking for may be in there, but there are a few issues. The values I mentioned above are actually modifiers for the slots, I THINK. I have tried setting one value to 0 and others to 1, and it still cancelled out all resource production. Since it also modifies cash flow, you can see that is modifying several different other effects. There are also a bunch of different keys in there. Some seem to refer to main settlement lines and others to types of resources or specific instances of resources (such as the levels of farms, gold mining, silver mining etc.).

    I'm not really sure how all this stuff interacts in game. I really have no clue what the settelment keys numbered 1-5 would cancel out resource production which seems to be a fixed number. But, like I said, I'll try some things and see what happens.


  9. #49
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    I have filled in the last Icons. For the moment I feel like having enough material to move back into PFM and start recreating all the buildings. And of course playing with effect to help ABH2 with his research as well.

  10. #50
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Hi there, its time think about future steps and concepts soon. Chasing bugs on the music, camera and UI mods now (+ asking how far aztec has come with his graphics). I also hope to be able to make a little surprise.

    BUT afterwards there will be some more difficult tasks to do.

    1.) To build or not to built Buildings are on our schedule.
    2.) The roman rosters is on our schedule
    3.) and the campaign framework will be on our schedule

    Question:

    1.) Buildings: Is it possible to link building prerequisites to non of its own chain e.g. Building 1A can be upgraded to 1B, but requires 1A AND C3 to be build? Or can you set requirements only to the previous building in the chain and to technologies?

    2.) Roster: Since, I made a thread about general turns per year, we found out that most players play around 50-150 turns. Now since AAW will be 12 or 24 turns (I love 24, but most people go with 12) we will have to make a decision of historical accurate reforms so we play a very short timeframe (maybe a campaign lasts like 10-20 if we do a good mod maybe 50 or more years (50x12 = a looooot of turns!!!). To be honest I am confident that at the end of the mod campaign with 1000 turns could be possible! Anyways, the decision we must made is will we do historical reforms? what range will we do our reforms. if its only short term we don't need to make so much effort to get augustan legions and marian ones. BUT if we don't go for historical accuracy, we must go for game play, so we have like every 50 turns like 1 big reform. so the player gets a constant renewal of his troops (which of course wouldn't be historical).

    3.) Campaign Map: Who can work on a painstaking task and help me on campaign map research and setup?

    Last but not least, how big would you estimate the chances that CA unlocks the building limitations in future?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Hi Alec

    1) Only techs and resources can be set as prerequsitions. And of course you need previos building level. We can of course merge 2-3 building superchains together and have some much much more complicated chains which will somehow simulate what you want (in one building spot). Particular building levels will contain both of these buildings and upgrade will just improve one part (in fact there would be a lot of buildings levels and transitions...) But only for merging something like buff+equipment chains. IF you want something like building Barracks4 only when you have port4 + agora3 +temple4 ...thatīs not possible.

    2) So we are looking only at 50-year timeframe? Pretty tight in my opinion for development.
    -Cities were getting bigger and bigger in much longer timeframe didnīt they?
    -technologies. We need to rename and rework them, in 50 year the development was not so big. :/
    -unit rooster. If we limit years then pick only one era. Something shiny like apex of rome. Still it would limit unit selection quite a lot. On contrary game is best working when you era starting with one province. So either pick era when roman empire were divided (like year of four emperor, triuvirates...) or just go with very beggining. What if Rome expanded much much faster so Sammite wars, Etruscan Leaque, Punic Wars. Either way,conquering the whole map in 50 years is pretty un-historical :/

    Anyway I fear ABH2 has a really good historical building system suitable again for much longer period.

    Question, Iīm playing grand with 4TPY hardcore...so research,build time...everything is 4x even movement and itīs pretty much historical feeling. Why you want just 24/12 TPY at cost of shorter time frame? I just feel such a shortening is suitable for minor campaign like Ceasar in Gaul, Punic War not for grand campaign.. :/

    3)I would start with getting infos from
    Europe Barbarorum 1+2
    Roma Resurectum
    Original Rome 1

    Regions specialities, wonders, buildings...

    We cannot change map/settlements but we can have unique privincies/wonders and uniqe buildings in these 4th/6th slots. And a list of these things we can do now.

    EDIT: plus we would like to have every faction to posses some unique buildings. (top tier) For these ideas we of course should know how many factions we plan to have playable. Itīs easy to get ideas for Rome/Hellenistic factions but barbarians are tough...

    About future. There are still planning some DLC. Cleopatra..I bet 50% it could contain even some sort of improvements to politics/civil wars.(first,second triumvirate = pretty important battles...) Alexander, Barbars maybe. And for example eastern culture has only Parthia as playable while that part of map contains a spot for 2-3 another playable factions. And why not some minor DLCs. I qould quess at least half or year until they pull everything out. Then they will probably release even tools like in case of Shogun 2. So modders could keep games alive. But probably after all of that.

    I must admit that rather than waiting two years for map,ui changes I would prefer to tailer mod around currently available things. Yes,itīs not like these older mods and doesnīt allow settlement with everything. But we can create a quite strategy around limited buildings slots. (We can use it or keep talking about how we hate it...)
    Last edited by Daruwind; July 18, 2014 at 12:41 AM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    It's not my call, and I believe I've said it before, but the only way I see 12-24 turns per year working (it would still be a stretch, I believe) would be if CA released map editing tools, and the map was greatly expanded as a result. As currently constructed, I think it's simply impossible to balance.

    Expansion is represented poorly in game, and the AI kind of sucks. There's only so much that can be done in this regard. I'm attempting to implement some of that (slower expansion) with my building chains, but there's only so much possible.

    On the number of turns (I figured that was the point of the poll thread), I can only say what I do as a player and what I'm aiming for with the game. I like to try and play out history. It's one of the few ways to make the game slightly challenging, really. I like historical reforms, and I think the goal of the mod should be to balance things so that's a more realistic reality.

    People quit campaigns for various reasons. I have some I've played until I've conquered everything, and some I've given up on because of either boredom or changes to the game/mods. Hopefully the first part can be addressed with an in-depth mod, so I think the goal should be a realistic timeframe of development. Especially for an immersion mod. Playing with legions in 200 BC bugs me, personally.

    1.) Buildings: Is it possible to link building prerequisites to non of its own chain e.g. Building 1A can be upgraded to 1B, but requires 1A AND C3 to be build? Or can you set requirements only to the previous building in the chain and to technologies?
    Techs can't be attached to anything. Daruwind covered most of the rest.

    The one thing I've mentioned in the past - resources. It's possible to build a level 3 of a building that provides a resource which would unlock construction of another level in a different chain. These would be temporary resources. It would be exploiting the poor way resources are done in game currently.

    I usually mention land reform as a key to the Marian reforms. This won't be able to work exactly as I had hoped due to the way reforms work with the tech tree, but the concept is still applicable here, I believe. You construct a building that provides one of a resource. This could also have a unique text entry so it would be intuitive to the player. This then allows the construction of another line with that resource attachment. Since resources are attached to each building level distinctly, they are essentially gone when the original is upgraded.

    Otherwise, scripting would be the only way to do this.

    Last but not least, how big would you estimate the chances that CA unlocks the building limitations in future?
    0. I don't think they'll change the 6 building slots ever. The best we could hope for would be map editing tools which would allow the placement of building 'slots' on the campaign map and in the DB which would allow us to expand each settlement up to 6. That would require the painstaking task of having new provinces for each region. The UI is the other limitation as it won't expand out past 6. Unless there's a breakthrough on UI, 6 is the real limit on buildings.

    Otherwise, I'm pretty certain CA has any intention of changing the 4/6 minor/major split even in an expansion.

    On the map research - it's not that I object, but I've stayed out of that up until this point simply because it seems like something way down the road, unfortunately. I don't expect CA to release map editing tools until they've dumped all their DLC and however many expansions they plan.

    I'd also echo Daruwind's sentiment - the past mods for RTW1 did a pretty good job on the campaign maps, and there's no need to reinvent the wheel. But I'll be glad to offer input. I don't mind brainstorming ahead.
    Last edited by ABH2; July 17, 2014 at 09:30 PM.


  13. #53
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Anyway Iīm back in PFM. I set up testing mod with my resources. UI can handle 23 resources although not many more. In diplomatic window they are not limited such in the trade window (there they are expending out of diplomatic window)....I will send you link for pack in PM.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Daruwind; July 18, 2014 at 10:05 PM.

  14. #54
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Allright thanks guys.

    So its clear that buildings have requirements in previous buildings and research, no sophisticated system like Rome: Total War

    About the timeframe and reforms i will tell you more once i am back home.

    About the map it has to be completely redone, since we have a provincial system now which the old games did not have.

  15. #55

    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    UI can handle 23 resources although not many more. In diplomatic window they are not limited such in the trade window (there they are expending out of diplomatic window)....I will send you link for pack in PM.
    Have you noticed in logic to the way they show up? As in, something in the DB files that controls the order they are displayed?


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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Quote Originally Posted by ABH2 View Post
    Have you noticed in logic to the way they show up? As in, something in the DB files that controls the order they are displayed?
    Yes they seem to shuffle from time to time. Like with different mods they have different setup (even if the only mod concerning resources is without changes)

    Quote Originally Posted by alecwermuth View Post
    About the map it has to be completely redone, since we have a provincial system now which the old games did not have.
    I donīt think that province system is much worse. Yes different but letīs use it as a strength. And although some cities should be major (Syracuse..) but thatīs because you have to make a line somewhere.. To me province specialization is a way to go.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    After some googling....

    Rome 1
    building/factions infos (plus datadiscs):
    http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/info/...ngs/Architect/

    Europa Barbarorum
    Infos about Europa Barbarorum unique buildings/regions/wonders:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...nders-Project&
    or
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...onders-Project

    and something about regions/provincies
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...-the-EBII-Team

    complete buildings previews for every faction:
    http://www.europabarbarorum.com/downloads_guides.html

    Roma Resurecta
    (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nd-Discussions

    Well for that one Iīm unable to find any comprehensive infos. :/ If anybody else know where to look or whom to ask I would be much grateful.

  18. #58
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Allright, the reason why we need to redo the map and because its so hard work is the provincial / regional system even there are many other mods out there no of those had to really bear in mind the provincial - regional differences. Furthermore all RTW mods did had a faction limitation of 15-30 factions? We have 150+ as far as I know and we must make some decisions of what factions we will have in 217BC and where they will be located at + which where the previous territory holders in case of rebellions (e.g. parts of Illyria belong to Rome, but are part of Ardiae, Dalmatea and so on. This takes a while, even with previous research done.

    I have another question concerning your findings on UI and resources. What happens on the map if you have multiple resources in one area, will those be displayed next to each other as well or just appear with a pop up (or not appear at all, but only one resource being visible on the map)?

    I am currently setting up the map we will use for editing. There will be one for the in game and a very high res one where we can display our resources, AoR and so on without problems and huge zoom possibility. Stay tuned.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Quote Originally Posted by alecwermuth View Post
    we need to redo the map and because its so hard work is the provincial / regional system even there are many other mods out there no of those had to really bear in mind the provincial - regional differences.
    By redo you mean factions position,settlements names (currently possible things)...not changing boundaries,moving settlements etc. (currently not possible things) I just didnīt understand that one sentence quite well.

    Regional/province differencies are easy to simulate by effects aka wonders. We just need idea for every current province what to add (like add to Egypt a bonus to food production?)

    I have another question concerning your findings on UI and resources. What happens on the map if you have multiple resources in one area, will those be displayed next to each other as well or just appear with a pop up (or not appear at all, but only one resource being visible on the map)?
    There are some problems. I will try to cover all possible areas.

    1)trade window
    - Icons are scaled down by game itself so even with many resources everything looks nice. (Screenshots is missing any import icons as Iīm generating much more resources than any trade partner at the moment. But they would be too scaled down nicely.)
    - Currently we donīt know exactly how are resources lined up. Order in some DB table probably. The order of icons is important for other things as I will explain in next screenshots...Just remember the ORDER - first is Purple Dye, last one is Livestock!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Just for showing some import icons one of my older screenshots with Meaningful Resource mode. You can see completly different line up of resources. Although it was with almost same mod configuration...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    2)Diplomacy Windows
    - Icons are not scaled down. Players export is expanding out of his window. (see red !!!)
    - Problem is with Import from AI as these will keep expadning outside screen in direction of red arrow. :/
    (you can notice that resources are in the same order as in trade window)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    3)Campaign map
    -Game is showing only one resource icon per region/settlement. This icons is set up at the very beggining of the game and it is first resource from the "line" previously stated. NO matter how many units of resource are produced. No matter how many different resources are being producet at the beggining only the first one will be shown for the rest of the game. No matter later changes to resource production even if there is no actual production later..

    EDIT: Basically the most left icon in resource line is shown. From actual production at the game start.

    (Example below. Rome - Field of Mars is producing almost every resource in the very same quantity. Only the Purple Dye is shown)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Screenshot of next turn when I razed Field of Mars in Rome.. Rome is still showing production of Purple Dye without any real production...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    4)Overview
    -Again only one icon per region/settlement yet to make things even little more confusing this time itīs the last icon from "resources line". So for Rome you can see icon of Livestock (The last resource in "resource line")
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Screenshot of next turn when I razed Field of Mars in Rome. Icons of Livestock dissappear. So this overview map is actually showing dynamic information on resource production.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Daruwind; July 19, 2014 at 12:05 PM.

  20. #60
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Workshop] Daruwind's Building Trees and Resources

    Wow, awesome work. Thats exactly all i needed to know. I will need some time to make up my mind with all the possible systems we have available and how to use them (combining yours and ABH2s work e.g. population system, food, squalor, resources, wonders, buildings, edicts, techs and so on. I'll need a bit of thinking of how we can use which system the best way and still make all work together fine.

    About the map question: I will do a map with things that are currently possible and a map with things that could be possible in future. I don't want to do everything now and when months in the future the tools come in to redo everything again, but not have dealt with these things for months. So I hope to avoid the assimilation process / learning process over again.

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