The problem with fantasy writers these days

They come up with great concepts like magic being a 'positive' energy like matter, it and being the flow of life and whatnot (making every living creature magical) but then they go and ruin it with a generic medieval european setting. I'm not saying all aspects of medieval culture are bad, you can reuse some of them in very interesting ways (knighthood, fencing etc.) but at LEAST try to create some unique human cultures instead of copying the brits, romans and occasionally the franks. I'm not saying it's wrong for your cultures to be somewhat based on real world ones, since so many people lack the creativity to think of brand new cultures, but if your "OMG ORIGINAL IDEA" is just greeks in fantasyland.. yeah.. don't expect much.

I feel like we're progressing, and slowly getting past the whole sissy elves and manly/drunk dwarves thing, but we've still got a long way to go before writers sort out their priorities.

I'm reading the Stormlight Archive novels right now by Brandon Sanderson. You got knights and fencing like you wanted.. and nothing else from medieval Europe. Its pretty much fantasy sci-fi set in a completely alien world. Try it out.

- Too many "different" races
- Too much magic
- Not realistic enough

Originally Posted by hellheaven1987

- Too many "different" races
- Too much magic
- Not realistic enough

Traditional fantasy (which is the one I'm referring to in my post) doesn't really need "realism", there's science fantasy for that. And there's low fantasy for non-magical or low-magic settings, but they're still set in pseudo medieval europe most of the time annoyingly enough. Agree with the races thing, no point in having 10,000 varieties of elves.

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

i regard Tolkien as a bad writer, btw

Opinion discarded.

Originally Posted by hellheaven1987

- Too many "different" races
- Too much magic
- Not realistic enough

Agree on all counts. While I'm not a huge fan of ASoIaF, one of the things it did right as well as Tolkien was having a world that was just grounded and realistic enough to be believable while still having just enough magic to give it an air of the mysterious. And what's important about the magic in both series is that it's not overly present so it doesn't become commonplace, and it's not explained in-depth so it doesn't become mundane. Rather, the magic remains magical. And they didn't have a D&D style catalogue of all the various kinds of sentient races flooding the place that'd make you question what the purpose of having so many is. There were various kinds of elves in Tolkien's works, but they were basically just different elven cultures, not biologically or genetically different "forest elves" and "high elves" or "dark elves" or what have you. Something some fantasy writers seem to do is replace different cultures with different species.

Originally Posted by Eneru112

They come up with great concepts like magic being a 'positive' energy like matter, it and being the flow of life and whatnot (making every living creature magical) but then they go and ruin it with a generic medieval european setting. I'm not saying all aspects of medieval culture are bad, you can reuse some of them in very interesting ways (knighthood, fencing etc.) but at LEAST try to create some unique human cultures instead of copying the brits, romans and occasionally the franks. I'm not saying it's wrong for your cultures to be somewhat based on real world ones, since so many people lack the creativity to think of brand new cultures, but if your "OMG ORIGINAL IDEA" is just greeks in fantasyland.. yeah.. don't expect much.

I feel like we're progressing, and slowly getting past the whole sissy elves and manly/drunk dwarves thing, but we've still got a long way to go before writers sort out their priorities.

^The elves/dwarves etc stereotypes are not really the fault of 'fantasy' as a genre, but of Tolkien. Before Tolkien there were actually very decent and important English writers of fantasy creatures/lands, who are worth reading (i regard Tolkien as a bad writer, btw ). Lord Dunsany is easily my favorite there, and he wrote up to 1920s iirc. You can find a lot of his works online. 'How Nuth would have practiced his art on the Gnoles' (or a similar title) is a very good 6-page story by him.

Arthur Machen is another example of that, in the same period.

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

^The elves/dwarves etc stereotypes are not really the fault of 'fantasy' as a genre, but of Tolkien.

Actually, no. They're the fault of people who didn't read Tolkien properly and then tried to copy him. The Elf/Dwarf stereotypes that abound in modern media are mostly absent in Tolkien's writings (which you would know, had you bothered to read them). The fact that they are somehow present in the recent movie adaptations of LotR and The Hobbit has nothing to do with the original and just shows that the screenwriters of those moveies are illiterate.
Before Tolkien, Elfs were basically synonymous with fairies in fiction. Etc. As far as I understand it, he actually tried to remove some of the stereotypes.
That a lot of people with a serious lack of imagination have since tried to copy his stories and settings is not his fault.

Also, people tend to write about what they know. If most fantasy writers are from North America or NW Europe, you can't blame them for basing most of their stuff on their own cultural substance. Only very few authors can write about foreign cultures or their fantasy derivates without getting basic stuff wrong (that could be avoided by simple research in most cases) or resorting to awful stereotypes.

Originally Posted by Katsumoto

Not fantasy but Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs trilogy had an interesting mix of cultures with a planet made up of a Japanese-Slavic race, the story being it was settled by a Japanese company with an eastern European labour force.

Technically speaking, Kovacs is a Hungarian name, though...

Originally Posted by athanaric

Technically speaking, Kovacs is a Hungarian name, though...

Yeah that's the point. The main character is descended from Slavs, but the culture is heavily Japanese.

Anyway, the problem in my mind with fantasy is its almost always some big great 'evil' or 'darkness' or 'plague' spreading across the land that a plucky group of adventurers must do something about. Like they're the only ones that can do anything. That and the excessive magic and elves. And dwarves. For instance Richard Morgan's Kovacs novels are outstanding sci-fi-- then for some reason he decides to switch over to fantasy and I read the description of those books and was immediately like I'm not getting this. Morgan is a fantastic writer. But the description literally starts with "A dark lord will rise. Such is the prophecy that dogs Ringil Eskiath—Gil, for short—a washed-up mercenary and onetime war hero whose cynicism is surpassed only by the speed of his sword." No ing thanks. Same old . Admittedly the characters are apparently different than your normal white washed heroes. The series is also supposed to be quite violent and has explicit sex scenes and lots of bad language. That's a departure at least from the traditional fantasy crap. But it's still just a repackaging of the same old sword and dungeon/sorcery stuff. Disappointing considering how great the Kovacs trilogy was and some of the awesome concepts in that.

It's another reason why GoT is so much more popular than traditional fantasy. A big strength of the show is the fact that it focuses on geopolitics of the Kingdom of Westeros. That's interesting to a lot of people. You can draw readers in that have no interest in dragons, or elves, or any of that crap.

Uh, ok. Time wasted :

What books are you reading? Only book I remember reading that had basically most of its world ripped off of LotR was that Eragon series. It was 'kay, nothing great. Most of the ones I've been reading recently are very unique in their settings and civilisations, and all similarities between those and real life are small enough to ignore or come across as intentional.

In fact, there's one writer, Joe Abercrombie, whose books are completely based on cliches. Barbarians in the north, desert tribes in the south, a very European medieval-esque nation in the middle, a wizard in his tower... And it's completely new. He managed it in a way that I didn't even realise they were cliches until I read a synopsis about it, long after reading the first 2 of the 3 book series.

But I can name several authors who are unique with their world and its peoples. Glen Cook's The Black Company is unlike much else I've read. The Malazan Book of the Fallen is very original as well, huge world, great story, though might be faulted for the "too many races" thing. Still, it didn't bother me much. R. Scot Bakker, Robert V.S. Reddick, all of these have unique worlds and though you could say the peoples in those books are similar to those in real life, well, they wouldn't be similar enough to make you put the book down or even get annoyed about it.

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

i regard Tolkien as a bad writer, btw

I'd agree with you tbh. Not my thing.

Originally Posted by Eneru112

Traditional fantasy (which is the one I'm referring to in my post) doesn't really need "realism", there's science fantasy for that. And there's low fantasy for non-magical or low-magic settings, but they're still set in pseudo medieval europe most of the time annoyingly enough. Agree with the races thing, no point in having 10,000 varieties of elves.

"Traditional" fantasy being what? Fantasy with magic, that hasn't "modern" technology, that has elves, dwarves and orcs? Having kings and vassals, steel plate and chainmail and whatever other typically medieval stuff doesn't take away from a story.

Opinion discarded.

Hey now, just cause he doesn't agree with you...

lack the creativity to think of brand new cultures

Not that simple, creating a plausible culture is downright difficult, and you'll have to really force yourself to end up with something that can't be discarded as a stereotype or imitation by someone. Just look how actual cultures with millennia of unique history are all stereotyped and grouped together.

Not that simple, creating a plausible culture is downright difficult, and you'll have to really force yourself to end up with something that can't be discarded as a stereotype or imitation by someone. Just look how actual cultures with millennia of unique history are all stereotyped and grouped together.

Well maybe it'd be easier if they left eorpean stereotypes alone, which is what I imagine he was getting at. A new culture could be something Mongolian mixed with something Incan, It's still based in real life culture but at least it's not the same rehashed england of King Arthur.

Or maybe something like the prawns in district 9? New species perhaps that don't have to fall into the elf/dwarf cliches. Or other mythos adapted?

to be honest I am looking for a fantasy novel that is not throwing magic or weird crap at you 24/7. thats what I think most fantasy novels suffer from, I remember reading a novel about this dark elf guy back in highschool and the novels were so long and there were several volumes with each being 700 pages long and it just talked about how this guy went from point A to Point B. constant action, constant fighting scenes while I found the most interesting chapters to be the ones where he visited new towns and met new people. thats what most novels lack, its the character interaction and development... that's why I really like GoT, its just character development from first page to the last one.

I like books that show the character in a really crap situation, whether it is in prison, slums or even slave/servant. She (so bored of male characters) gets out, apprentices herself to a higher cause or profession (now how she achieves this would be interesting) and then the rest of the story is about what happens to the character which is the author's job to make it interesting but I enjoy this setting much more than the typical:

"happy life, destroyed by villain, gather friends and beat villain"

I only know one book series, which I enjoyed greatly, called the "Night Angel" its about assassins, magic (kind of subtle like GoT or LOTR) and a character coming from nothing into something.
I read a manga the other day, the premise of the story is interesting but everything else goes down hill from there. Some guy dies but is reincarnated into a goblin and it shows his journey from a lowly goblin to a more evolved being.

if anyone knows story lines remotely close to this kind of plot then please refer it lol... oh and any young/child female character lead (or one of the leads) making such a transition into 'something' would really interest me, kind of getting bored of male characters all the time.

Originally Posted by Toho

Some guy dies but is reincarnated into a goblin and it shows his journey from a lowly goblin to a more evolved being.

if anyone knows story lines remotely close to this kind of plot then please refer it lol...

Almost sounds like Erin in AOT

@Toho You'd probably enjoy The Name of the Wind, by Patrick Rothfuss.

My problem with most modern fantasy is that it takes itself too seriously while overusing cheap shock and situational circumstances. Back in the day there was a different tone in fantasy books.

Originally Posted by Påsan

I'm reading the Stormlight Archive novels right now by Brandon Sanderson. You got knights and fencing like you wanted.. and nothing else from medieval Europe. Its pretty much fantasy sci-fi set in a completely alien world. Try it out.

Is Brandon Sanderson the one that finished the wheel of time? Man I really dislike that guy; he relies too much on cheap situational plots, cheesy reactions and explanations, not that Jordan is much better, but still …. And Sanderson misinterprets the only salvageable character in the series, why is Matt going to feel the “flow of battle”, when previously he quoted some maxim about that once he engages on battle he goes from being a commander to a solider.

Originally Posted by High Fist

In fact, there's one writer, Joe Abercrombie, whose books are completely based on cliches. Barbarians in the north, desert tribes in the south, a very European medieval-esque nation in the middle, a wizard in his tower... And it's completely new. He managed it in a way that I didn't even realise they were cliches until I read a synopsis about it, long after reading the first 2 of the 3 book series.

An Awsome and hilarious series. It is a character driven story, so the background doesn’t matter as much. My only problem with the series was the over use of “I do declare” which started as a particular characters catchphrase, I don’t remember but I think it was Glotka, but then became a common figure of speech and got annoying.

Originally Posted by Toho

to be honest I am looking for a fantasy novel that is not throwing magic or weird crap at you 24/7. thats what I think most fantasy novels suffer from, I remember reading a novel about this dark elf guy back in highschool and the novels were so long and there were several volumes with each being 700 pages long and it just talked about how this guy went from point A to Point B. constant action, constant fighting scenes while I found the most interesting chapters to be the ones where he visited new towns and met new people. thats what most novels lack, its the character interaction and development... that's why I really like GoT, its just character development from first page to the last one.

On paper being a hobo is kind of neat, you know I have been looking for something like that for a long time, the alternative dimension seemed like a good candidate to expand upon the idea since it allows for the contrast of different timelines and it keeps the trip going. There is a series of girl and pony books, called “the mode series” by Piers Anthony about a journey along several dimensions, in some of which the laws of physics works differently. It is also character driven and centers in a little girl and her traumas, then again only 4 are described in depth. “Homeward bounders” by Diana Wynne Jones gives you a decent exploration of the concept. A classic exploring the premise is Piper’s “Para Time”.

Originally Posted by Toho

I like books that show the character in a really crap situation, whether it is in prison, slums or even slave/servant. She (so bored of male characters) gets out, apprentices herself to a higher cause or profession (now how she achieves this would be interesting) and then the rest of the story is about what happens to the character which is the author's job to make it interesting but I enjoy this setting much more than the typical:

“The First law trilogy” by Abercrombie is sort of like that. I also recommend “the curse of Chalion”, by Bujold, Lois McMaster, in general her books tend to be centered into the exploits of characters limited by their status.

Originally Posted by Toho

Some guy dies but is reincarnated into a goblin and it shows his journey from a lowly goblin to a more evolved being.

This idea is AMAZING!

EDIT:

Originally Posted by High Fist

@Toho You'd probably enjoy The Name of the Wind, by Patrick Rothfuss.

Well written books, the main character is a little too much of a Mary sue for my tastes.

Originally Posted by Ima Farmathar

This idea is AMAZING!

its called RE:Monster, dont bother reading the light novel translation because it is abysmal, also the manga is going to spiral downward midway through with your typical young man's fantasy.
besides the premise everything else is terrible. I understand what the 'end result' the author wants to achieve which is fine but it lacks the time, character development and sequence of events that make the end result plausible otherwise it feels forced and a stereotypical "every guy's fantasy" situation.

"ok He is going to be super strong, has a hot chick on either side and.... and... and..." you get the picture.

Originally Posted by Spartan999

Almost sounds like Erin in AOT

Kind of like that but I enjoy that story because of its relentless cruelty, it pull no punches and the 'good guys' are losing in fair manner, thats what I like the most about it.
also if anyone else has any book suggestions, keep em coming even if they are male characters as long as it is not a single character driven story, I want both males and females to be shown equally, that dark elf novel i brought up was a single sausage-fest story (one guy) with zero character development between him and forgettable characters along the way that you never see ever again.

Has anyone read the manga Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, by Hayao Miyazaki (the anime director)? It starts off as a mix of medieval and modern and the just plain weird (ie. the fungal forest), but it develops an interesting premise that could even be described as believably post-apocalyptic.

Originally Posted by pannonian

Has anyone read the manga Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, by Hayao Miyazaki (the anime director)? It starts off as a mix of medieval and modern and the just plain weird (ie. the fungal forest), but it develops an interesting premise that could even be described as believably post-apocalyptic.

It is not fantasy though; it is more close to sci-fic.

Originally Posted by pannonian

Has anyone read the manga Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, by Hayao Miyazaki (the anime director)? It starts off as a mix of medieval and modern and the just plain weird (ie. the fungal forest), but it develops an interesting premise that could even be described as believably post-apocalyptic.

The Manga wasn't written by him, but his Anime of it really is excellent One of the first Anime movies i ever saw (when i was 12, i think). Still one of his best productions. I also prefer it to the somewhat similar (and much later) Princess Mononoke.
The toxic jungle and what horror comes out of it when sensing danger, is just a very potent symbol for conflicts of any kind.