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Thread: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

  1. #21

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    is there a way to tie initiative to shields? since the roman style of shield helped allot with their ability to attack. it wasnt just a wall to hide behind, it was activly used to smash your way to victory.

    so you could give the roman style shield 1 initiative to make up for their short swords. while short sword units without a propper shield would be untouched. and so not ruin the balance.

  2. #22

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    About roman AI and such...

    This has been discussed a lot lately.

    I will just say this: I had a battle a while ago, mainly hastati in siege defence (no oil, battle was not at the gate, but behind it, so it got conquered) vs spear and sword suebi guys. I play - with factions i am used too - only on legendary. The three main fighting hastati units killed each between 150 und 300 in close meele combat, on legendary. This more than enough. On legendary even a levy can kick your ass The reason romans doing extremly well on legendary is that their formations are really strong for the early units and lower exhausting, which is an important part of battle mechanic (which is a good thing).

    The "problem" about roman AI is, and will ever be, the starting point of rome. I dont know who got the idea that the starting point is easy. If the AI or the player gets unlucky you will just have 3 factions invading your land from different directions. Also i have seen rome expand several times during my plays lately.

    ___

    I admit the difference between elite romans and babarians should not be that huge. Still i think, without formations, the babarians should be a bit stronger. But nothing too fancy.
    Last edited by TheOrangeProject; June 23, 2014 at 05:46 PM.


    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day

  3. #23

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrangeProject View Post
    About roman AI and such...

    This has been discussed a lot lately.

    I will just say this: I had a battle a while ago, mainly hastati in siege defence (no oil, battle was not at the gate, but behind it, so it got conquered) vs spear and sword suebi guys. I play - with factions i am used too - only on legendary. The three main fighting hastati units killed each between 150 und 300 in close meele combat, on legendary. This more than enough. On legendary even a levy can kick your ass The reason romans doing extremly well on legendary is that their formations are really strong for the early units and lower exhausting, which is an important part of battle mechanic (which is a good thing).

    The "problem" about roman AI is, and will ever be, the starting point of rome. I dont know who got the idea that the starting point is easy. If the AI or the player gets unlucky you will just have 3 factions invading your land from different directions. Also i have seen rome expand several times during my plays lately.

    ___

    I admit the difference between elite romans and babarians should not be that huge. Still i think, without formations, the babarians should be a bit stronger. But nothing too fancy.
    I think that the roman AI being steamrolled problem would be better addressed with a different type of mod - the accurate historical development one by i forgot who. doing so purely with units will probably give the player too much of an advantage when playing as romans.

    historically a unit of barbarians would generally not win against a unit of legionaries with similar #'s on both sides, due to various reasons that has been discussed extensively.
    if you are talking about ONE soldier vs another soldier, that is an entirely different story, and honestly not really relevant to game and balance.

    and again for the purposes of balance, we are talking unit vs. unit.

    in my mod, most elite barbarian units DO still win against elite legions in a 1v1, due to the fact that they tend to have more men per group, but the fights should be pretty close.
    Romans have the advantage in having more upgrade buildings and testudo.

    in terms of faction balance, we also need to take into account that romans have pretty terrible cavalry compared to most barbarian factions, yes the newest version added cataphracts to certain AORs, but they still have less men per unit than most barb cavalry. to this end, roman infantry as a whole SHOULD be the best in the game, as they were historically - army vs army, not man vs. man.

  4. #24
    Durador's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    i played a few Arverni (low units) vs Roman (elite units) and i thought the battle was far more realistic the Romans could hold there ground against them for a long time.
    only reason i won was that i use the hamer and anvil tactic but even with that it was a harder battle then i normally have.

    I think (i don't know the stats) that barbarian cultures should have a bit more lower morale. and then it would be even be a harder battle.

  5. #25
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    And one must also consider that very very few battles even today is fought and won with two armies just hacking at each other with no amount or attempts of a strategy or tactics. Barbarians should have a bigger ability to punch hard but the romans should win in a prolonged battle and with superior tactics.

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  6. #26

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    And one must also consider that very very few battles even today is fought and won with two armies just hacking at each other with no amount or attempts of a strategy or tactics. Barbarians should have a bigger ability to punch hard but the romans should win in a prolonged battle and with superior tactics.

    Sendt fra min GT-I9100 med Tapatalk
    of course, and neither are battles in DeI fought without tactics, yet, analysis of direct unit vs. unit slugfests are necessary for the purpose of balancing the game.

    on the age old debate of how good barbarian infantry are vs. roman infantry... I would say that while barbarians tend to be somewhat physically larger, the size difference would matter more in a fist fight, but when it comes to fully armed and armored soldiers, the quality of equipment and training, formations etc, would likely matter much more. The better discipline and morale likely played a large factor as well.

    late legionaries were uniformly well armored and equipped. your average quality barbarian infantry not so much, and they likely had less training than the late legionaries as well.

    morale is rather poorly represented in DeI, every faction's units have the same morale, i.e. spartans has the same morale as random barbarian infantry in DeI. I did not have the time to address this as it would require further balance tweeks.

  7. #27

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Move this to the submod section?

  8. #28

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    There are many problems with R2 that simply cannot be addressed, such as 1 city factions being able to field 20 unit stacks without any problems + huge garrisons on top of that. I don't even think you can restrict them in that regard. Legionary mass would be interesting to fiddle with. Ideally you could deploy them 3-4 deep and have them hold a position well, whereas you'd need a 6-8 deep formation to hold in the same way for lesser units such as barbarians etc. I also find it ridiculous from a gameplay point that every unit in the game throws javelins before charge. It further screws with Roman formations which should be their strength and should be an ability limited to very few units overall, such as a few Iberian units, Royal Peltasts, Romans themselves etc. The biggest issue really is that legionaries are worthless troops in combat. The mod is a bit too celt centric I think.

  9. #29
    Libertus
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    So guys is it working correctly, i want to know cause i am in middle of campaing now and if it changes and balances a little more the rome i would start a new one, otherwise nope. Rome 2 was marketed to the best, if they invested that money from marketing to the AI in the game, it would have been a lot better, thankfully we have the modders to save this game

  10. #30
    XIIICaesar's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Made it a submod PACK file. Extracted the files and recompiled by their self as stand-alone PACK. Just give meerkatology time to upload it....

  11. #31

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Thanks!

  12. #32

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Save game compatible?

  13. #33

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by BooBooLovesAll View Post
    Save game compatible?
    yes

  14. #34
    nashpik's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Thank you meerkatology for this much needed submod.
    It gives DEI real balance and playability.
    Great work

  15. #35
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by meerkatology View Post
    of course, and neither are battles in DeI fought without tactics, yet, analysis of direct unit vs. unit slugfests are necessary for the purpose of balancing the game.

    on the age old debate of how good barbarian infantry are vs. roman infantry... I would say that while barbarians tend to be somewhat physically larger, the size difference would matter more in a fist fight, but when it comes to fully armed and armored soldiers, the quality of equipment and training, formations etc, would likely matter much more. The better discipline and morale likely played a large factor as well.

    late legionaries were uniformly well armored and equipped. your average quality barbarian infantry not so much, and they likely had less training than the late legionaries as well.

    morale is rather poorly represented in DeI, every faction's units have the same morale, i.e. spartans has the same morale as random barbarian infantry in DeI. I did not have the time to address this as it would require further balance tweeks.
    I will try out your mod again but there are so many opinions on whether the romans should plow everyone or what. They might have had better equipment and perhaps a better or at least a different type of training. Just remember that before the reforms made by Marius the Romans got slaughtered by the germans in several major battles. And even later on they never really conquered Germany. But that is perhaps a more historical debate. Just dont make them like these killing machines that some people tend to do. That would remove alot of fun.

  16. #36

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    I will try out your mod again but there are so many opinions on whether the romans should plow everyone or what. They might have had better equipment and perhaps a better or at least a different type of training. Just remember that before the reforms made by Marius the Romans got slaughtered by the germans in several major battles. And even later on they never really conquered Germany. But that is perhaps a more historical debate. Just dont make them like these killing machines that some people tend to do. That would remove alot of fun.
    Romans as killing machines is half the fun

  17. #37
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirra View Post
    Romans as killing machines is half the fun
    But not very balanced. Unless you find it funny to have a game where you just steamroll everything with no real challenge to the game. Then yes Romans should be killing machines. I agree that the Romans shouldnt be so weak that they lose to levies but saying that they should plow anyone in their way would be unrealistic. Hopefully meerkatology have found the right way to balance the units in a way that at least to some degree shows the strengths and weaknesses of the different factions.

  18. #38

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    But not very balanced. Unless you find it funny to have a game where you just steamroll everything with no real challenge to the game. Then yes Romans should be killing machines. I agree that the Romans shouldnt be so weak that they lose to levies but saying that they should plow anyone in their way would be unrealistic. Hopefully meerkatology have found the right way to balance the units in a way that at least to some degree shows the strengths and weaknesses of the different factions.
    Well then hopefully the other half balances it all out and we will both be happy.

  19. #39
    Cavalier's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Thanks for this mod. Finally I've got a chance at defending/attacking settlements!
    August Strindberg: "There's a view, current at the moment even among quite sensible people, that women, that secondary form of humanity (second to men, the lords and shapers of human civilisation) should in some way become equal with men, or could so be; this is leading to a struggle which is both bizarre and doomed. It's bizarre because a secondary form, by the laws of science, is always going to be a secondary form. Imagine two people, A (a man) and B (a woman). They start to run a race from the same point, C. A (the man) has a speed of, let's say, 100; B (the woman) has a speed of 60. Now, the question is 'Can B ever overtake A?" and the answer is 'Never!'. Whatever training, encouragement or self-denial is applied, the proposition is as impossible as that two parallel lines should ever meet."


  20. #40

    Default Re: [SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

    Yo, are you still working on this mod?


    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day

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