[SubMod] Meerkat's Unit Balancing SubMod - Romans are playable now!

[meerkatology]

As myself and many others have noticed, that while DEI is a lovely mod, some major balance issues exist.

This is most apparent playing as the Romans, where your elite legions are getting destroyed by low lvl barbarian swordsmen or militia spearmen.

A simple testing in custom battle will reveal that:

early hastati (spear) > imperial legion 1v1

any barbarian longswordsmen > any roman legion 1v1

Why? - initiative is very overpowered, it completely trumps deadliness, thus the low initiative weapons such as the gladius, greek shortswords, and 1handed axes, are very underpowered due to having initiative of 0 - even the most elite gladius wielding legions will be easily beaten by lower tier longswordsmen or spearmen. Longswords and spears are generally in a good place as they both have initiative of 2; I feel that they are balanced vs eachother.


While initiative is overpowered, deadliness has its own problem as well - even a few points of deadliness completely ignores armor, making armor generally pretty useless

once again, simple testing in custom battle reveals:

late hastati vs. imperial cataphract legion = even

to further test, I modded the segmenta armor to give the cataphract legion 400 armor... it still went exactly even against the hastati.


This mod seeks to address the above two balance problems. In this mod, 0 initiative, high deadliness weapons such as the gladius have received a boost in initiative, nerf in deadliness and boost in regular damage.
You will now find that elite roman legions will generally go about even against elite barbarian infantry.
Other previously underpowered units such as greek shortswordsmen i.e argyryspides, thorax swordsmen, are also similarly buffed as roman legions.

You will also find that armor actually makes a difference now, even against higher deadliness weapons such as axes and gladii, but a smaller difference compared to the lower deadliness weapons such as the longsword and spear.

Download link:
standalone verison -

http://depositfiles.com/files/jxj9y6ccw

use modmanager and load this higher on the list than the original DeI file, should be compatible with all version
(courtesy of XIIICaesar)

~enjoy

[Durador]

Thanks for making your mod. But can it be a "sub mod"? I don't want to re download the whole file.

[meerkatology]

Thanks for making your mod. But can it be a "sub mod"? I don't want to re download the whole file.

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[Aethyr]

Yay, now I can play again. When I play tested this in the previous releases I was very happy with the results.

There's a thread out in dei main forum about elaborating on tactics being greater than hammer and anvil.
A suggestion for heavy inf to have high mass and levies low mass along with nerfs/buffs to health status.

What are your thoughts on this, do you think it'd something you might consider testing out?

[FlashHeart07]

to make it a sub mod I believe you would have to export the tables that you have modded into a new .pack file which you would then name as you want and load it before DeI. That way your mod will override DeI but only in the same tables and the rest that your mod is missing would be filled in by DeI.
And then you would only have to upload your mod (the exported and altered tables from DeI) and that way people can disable your mod if they just want to return to how DeI was before without having to re-download DeI.

[FlashHeart07]

After looking at the files it seems like you havent changed anything about the pikemen or at least not their weapons. Seeing as there is a vast group of DeI users that feel like the pikes should be deadlier when attacked from the front when in phalanx, wouldnt they become even weaker now that you have increased the dmg of some units that already was doing quite well against a phalanx?

[TheOrangeProject]

Good work, but you should provide more evidence. I did a quick test on my own and my spear hastati lost against legionaries (the normal ones, i dont know to which unit you refer with imperial legion since in my DeI translation there is no imperial legion). But it was really close and i admit the difference should be more clearly.

Of course i played on normal, so no buffs an such. No General involved and both charged with spear throw.

About babarians...this is a difficult question and has been discussed several times. Imo and personal taste: I dont think a roman legion have to win 1v1 against elite babarians, the strength of rome should be their formations, solid moral and durabilty. Since babarians lack formation button - which is already a downside in battle - they should be winning slightly against romans or at least a bit stronger (when the romans dont use formations). Please remember almost every roman inf has some formations -like square, which is super strong if used wisely - which increase their battle stats, many factions dont have that good formations.

Also you should be aware not to make all units even, because will get boring as soon as it is all the same. There is a point in the unique style of units and their weaks and strength in battle 3 waves of spears can change a lot and a thrown spear into head doesn't care about stats

Anyway. I will try your mod out. Thanks for your effort.

[FlashHeart07]

Good work, but you should provide more evidence. I did a quick test on my own and my spear hastati lost against legionaries (the normal ones, i dont know to which unit you refer with imperial legion since in my DeI translation there is no imperial legion). But it was really close and i admit the difference should be more clearly.

Of course i played on normal, so no buffs an such. No General involved and both charged with spear throw.

About babarians...this is a difficult question and has been discussed several times. Imo and personal taste: I dont think a roman legion have to win 1v1 against elite babarians, the strength of rome should be their formations, solid moral and durabilty. Since babarians lack formation button - which is already a downside in battle - they should be winning slightly against romans or at least a bit stronger (when the romans dont use formations). Please remember almost every roman inf has some formations -like square, which is super strong if used wisely - which increase their battle stats, many factions dont have that good formations.

Also you should be aware not to make all units even, because will get boring as soon as it is all the same. There is a point in the unique style of units and their weaks and strength in battle 3 waves of spears can change a lot and a thrown spear into head doesn't care about stats

Anyway. I will try your mod out. Thanks for your effort.

So far I have been getting the same results before and after the use of this sub mod. I tried early hastati vs legionaries and they were pretty even. With the sub mod the hastati started winning ever so slightly in the end. So for those two units I see no change other than what the unit description tells me but nothing in the battle itself. Hopefully some of you will have better results.

[SMoVader]

I just tested this myself with early hastati vs marian legionaries and they were pretty evenly matched as FlashHeart07 said :/.

[FlashHeart07]

I just tested this myself with early hastati vs marian legionaries and they were pretty evenly matched as FlashHeart07 said :/.

Most unfortunate and if you increase the deadliness of the gladius to 4 they will beat the hastati, as it should be, but will completely decimate a phalanx of foot companions, which they shouldnt. So then you would have to buff pikes or just nerf everybody. it's tough to proper balance everything and so far the original DeI is better balanced than anything Ive seen so far.

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[Mr.IAmHere]

Err... This should be in the Submods SubForum me thinks...

[TheOrangeProject]

I can't try anything until tomorrow afternoon, but will post my results here.

Wouldnt it be easier to - for testing purpose - to make around "enter amount here" different late hastati units, each with different stats and then trying it out? Like a mass test unfortunately i am not into modding, otherwise i would have already done it.

I think it would be of help if anyone could explain what deadliness and initiative actually is. Deadl. has something to do with armor, but i honestly dont have a real clue about the whole concept about those two things and never encountered a thread which helped me about it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-vs-Initiative

According to this thread: Things like fightinig at the flanks etc have also be in mind while modding those stats.

Edit: Butans second post seems reasonable to me.

[FlashHeart07]

I can't try anything until tomorrow afternoon, but will post my results here.

Wouldnt it be easier to - for testing purpose - to make around "enter amount here" different late hastati units, each with different stats and then trying it out? Like a mass test unfortunately i am not into modding, otherwise i would have already done it.

I think it would be of help if anyone could explain what deadliness and initiative actually is. Deadl. has something to do with armor, but i honestly dont have a real clue about the whole concept about those two things and never encountered a thread which helped me about it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-vs-Initiative

According to this thread: Things like fightinig at the flanks etc have also be in mind while modding those stats.

Edit: Butans second post seems reasonable to me.

Not that hard to mod this kind of thing. Just use the PFM and change the stats. Deadliness is dmg that is done by each hit always, so the legionaries would do 5 dmg per hit minimum. Pikes having 0 in deadliness would only do dmg if their melee attack succeeds against the enemy melee defence. Initiative determines who gets to strike first.

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[TheOrangeProject]

Thanks FlashHeart. I will look into it, got a bit more time soon.

I will try front attacks, as well as flank and rear attacks.

[Damocles]

The early hastati wouldn't feel so underpowered if they were represented in an historically accurate fashion.

[meerkatology]

Thanks for the feedback, a few things:

1. I do agree that pikes are probably underpowered, I have not had the time to test them extensively yet, as they uses are a bit more unique and situational than the slug it out in eachother's face infantry types. I will do it when i have more time.

2. cavalry charge is op - they have been op in every TW game as it is one of the few tactics that when used well will allow players to beat much larger AI armies. im not sure this is something i really want to touch, as even though it is "op" it requires a bit of skill to use.

3. hastati vs. legions - there is a degree of RNG is this, depending on how many pila eachside throws. there is a bug in the game that whoever gets hit first by a ranged attack will just raise their shield instead of throwing the pila. be observant of how many pila eachside actually throws. There is not a huge difference in elite vs. normal units in Dei, it has been a philosophy of the DeI team which i do agree with. so elite units may not win EVERY time, but they definitely should most of the time. at least when testing roman units vs eachother, please do at least 3 runs and watch the amount of pila. keep in mind also, that early roman units are generally pretty relatively strong, compared to previous TW games such as roma surrectum, but after my changes they should now be slightly inferior to later roman units. if your results consistently show otherwise, please let me know.

4. late game units have higher attack/defense ratings, these don't make as big of a difference as one might expect; however, in the progression of your campaign you will get alot of +% increases to these stats, there should be a slightly bigger difference in the actual campaign after % bonuses are apply to flat differences in these base stats.

5. armor probably still doens't matter as much as we like, but it should matter a bit more than before. further changes to the armor system would involve actualy increasing the gap between the lower and higher armor types, this would be a much bigger mod operation that i don't have time/resources to do at this time, but more feedback is welcome.

regarding the barbarians vs. romans argument, in vanilla DeI, barbarians were beating roman legions hard, regardless of formation, stamina difference etc etc. this should simply not be the case and is the main goal of this mod to address

[FlashHeart07]

The early hastati wouldn't feel so underpowered if they were represented in an historically accurate fashion.

But if that is not corrected or changed we have to do something else to balance it

[Damocles]

But if that is not corrected or changed we have to do something else to balance it

Well, yes. And we still need to do something about the fact that all the Roman stats were lowered across the board, supposedly because of complaints made about them being too hard. (They /did/ conquer half the Mediterranean in the 3rd Century BC).

But I just don't see it. In every DeI campaign game I've played, it becomes a race to conquer the Italian peninsula. There's just no way an AI faction that starts with rorarii and early hastati can compete against the killer rosters of the Greeks/Carthaginians and Barbarians, who start with incredible, elite troops from turn one. (Epirus has elephants, Sparta has what are basically super commandos, etc).

Make an army with as much Spartan skirtai swordsmen as you can, and it's like fighting with praetorian legionaries that can hide anywhere, move while hidden, and start behind the enemy. Their stats are equivalent to the bodyguard units of other factions. And yes, unlike the starting Romans, they have javelins and short swords...unreal.

[FlashHeart07]

Well, yes. And we still need to do something about the fact that all the Roman stats were lowered across the board, supposedly because of complaints made about them being too hard. (They /did/ conquer half the Mediterranean in the 3rd Century BC).

But I just don't see it. In every DeI campaign game I've played, it becomes a race to conquer the Italian peninsula. There's just no way an AI faction that starts with rorarii and early hastati can compete against the killer rosters of the Greeks/Carthaginians and Barbarians, who start with incredible, elite troops from turn one. (Epirus has elephants, Sparta has what are basically super commandos, etc).

Make an army with as much Spartan skirtai swordsmen as you can, and it's like fighting with praetorian legionaries that can hide anywhere, move while hidden, and start behind the enemy. Their stats are equivalent to the bodyguard units of other factions. And yes, unlike the starting Romans, they have javelins and short swords...unreal.

True enough and the AI doesnt really get any help from the starting AoR units. But then it is just a matter of increasing the stats for the roman units And see if it is possible to give them their proper armament.
Btw. Do you or anyone else know what the effect of Campaign Stealth is? The description say that they cant be seen on the campaign map. But to me that doesnt make any sense at all.

[Damocles]

True enough and the AI doesnt really get any help from the starting AoR units. But then it is just a matter of increasing the stats for the roman units And see if it is possible to give them their proper armament.
Btw. Do you or anyone else know what the effect of Campaign Stealth is? The description say that they cant be seen on the campaign map. But to me that doesnt make any sense at all.

My best guess is it has something to do with agents.

That, or it's just one of CA's seemingly countless dead ends, red herrings or half-completed work for a half-formed idea that never made it into the game.