6 IRS computers crush and are 'recycled'- by chance they had files on some scandal :)

[Kyriakos]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/irs-he...233000070.html

Well, i did bother to read the above "article" (in my view it is far more worthy of being called 'recycled damaged file'), but the main part of the story is the ongoing Congress investigation on the IRS scandal of targeting anti-Obama political groups. The same story which a while ago saw the former head of that servive quit her job, and then take the 5th (invoking her right to not be forced to testify something which may incriminate her) after first announcing to Congress that she is utterly innocent - but would not want to say stuff which may incriminate her cause then she won't be innocent ).

Anyway, some bit from the article:

n a different age, a man called a liar to his face as many times as John Koskinen was on Friday would have been demanding pistols at dawn. But in our ostensibly more civilized era, the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service sat in the witness chair in a hearing before the House Ways and Means Committee Friday and let the abuse spewing from theatrically angry lawmakers wash over him.

Ever since it was revealed that the agency had wrongly targeted conservative groups, House Republicans have been pursuing every possible lead that might connect the scandal to the White House. So far they have met with no success, but when it was revealed last week that Lerner’s hard drive had crashed in 2011, destroying an untold number of emails from 2009 to 2011, the conspiracy theorists sensed that they were getting traction. When Koskinen revealed Friday that Lerner’s hard drive was recycled — after the IRS’s respected Criminal Investigation Division’s computer forensics lab determined it was beyond salvaging — they shifted into overdrive.

If the above is to be termed 'conspiracy theory', then what term should be used for claims that Reptilians are on earth, or that Obama is merely inept?

But i mostly liked this part from the article:

Koskinen also spent considerable time knocking down assertions by Republicans that emails from other key figures in the case had been lost due to computer crashes. The IRS informed Congress on Monday that six other computers belonging to employees that are part of the investigation had suffered crashes. Republicans immediately reported that the IRS was reporting that their emails were all lost as well.

Rep. Camp and Oversight Subcommittee chair Charles Boustany, Jr., (R-LA) put out a press release claiming that emails from all six had been lost. A spokesperson for the Ways and Means committee told The Fiscal Times, “their computers crashed and were deemed unrecoverable.” The IRS did not respond to multiple requests for clarification on the status of the hard drives.

Koskinen corrected the record in his testimony Friday. While there were crashes, he said, technicians had been able to recover all of the data from some of the computers, and with time might be able to salvage the files from all of them.

So the IRS cannot even afford a tech-savy person who would find the emails without destroying the data? If only there was some government agency that kept emails from people, that would be so much help now.

[Phier]

Just imagine the fuax outrage by the left if this was a Bush administration abuse of power.

[Seether]

Just imagine the fuax outrage by the left if this was a Bush administration abuse of power.

You mean like invading a sovereign nation, under countless false pretenses and faked intelligence reports, and occupying it for a decade so that the vice president got super rich through government contracts to a company he has considerable stake in? Like that kind of abuse of power?

I'll admit that this really looks like a coverup. In fact, I'd wager that it most definitely is. First the hard drive crashes, erasing emails, and then it was 'recycled' and is beyond salvage... But hell, with the evidence now destroyed, how do you prove anything that you could only prove via those hard drives?

[GrnEyedDvl]

I'll admit that this really looks like a coverup. In fact, I'd wager that it most definitely is. First the hard drive crashes, erasing emails, and then it was 'recycled' and is beyond salvage... But hell, with the evidence now destroyed, how do you prove anything that you could only prove via those hard drives?

Ok lets skip all the nonsense and get straight to the meat of the issue here, from the technical side of things which I do happen to know more than just a little bit about. The entire story about the computers crashing has had me irritated since it came out I just haven't posted on it yet.

Government email works the same as everyone else's email, there are not a lot of options when it comes to email and servers and the protocols behind them. Without question these email addresses work under one of two protocols: IMAP or POP3. There are no other choices.

So, if they are using IMAP (which I suspect they are, most big businesses do) then the emails are not stored on the local computers. The hard drives can crash all day and it doesn't matter one bit because the actual email is stored on a server such as an Exchange server (Windows) or a Dovecot server (Linux). There are a few other server systems out there but those are the big boys. In fact the government itself puts out some enhanced security for Linux systems and its built into the Linux kernel as Security Enhanced Linux developed by the NSA years ago. I am willing to bet a large sum of money that every single email system in use by the US government uses some form of Linux and Dovecot for their email services. Its pretty much the industry standard, just as it is with web servers. In the case of IMAP servers it doesn't matter how many end user hard drives crash, the information is still there. Hell even TWC has an IMAP server. It took about an hour to setup and I use it every day.

But its also possible (highly unlikely in my opinion) that they are using POP3 servers that work like your email at home does from your ISP. Your computer goes out to the email server, grabs the email, and its stored on your local machine and deleted from the server. Now in this scenario it is possible to lose email, well almost possible anyways. Except for one minor detail.

When an email is sent, it has to actually be sent to someone right? I mean there isn't much reason to send an email that doesn't go anywhere. Ok so where did it go? It went to another computer of course. So even if these 6 people had total hard drive failures that are unrecoverable whoever they were sending and receiving with still has that email either on their own machine or on their own IMAP server.

This entire story is complete BS and anyone with any real server knowledge at all knows it. There is no two ways about it, the emails are still there unless intentionally removed. The odds on 6 particular hard drives crashing in the same time period to the point that they were totally unrecoverable, and that those 6 drives are the only ones with the information on them is astronomical. And it would only take about 2 minutes to prove it.

Some senator or congressman just needs to grab someone like me and head to the nearest IRS office, and look at one machine. Any one, it doesn't matter who it belongs to or what their job is and you do not need administrative rights. And then all they have to do is look at how that persons email is setup. I would bet $10,000 that its setup on an IMAP system. And there is no way in hell they converted the entire IRS from POP3 to IMAP in the amount of time between those hard drive crashes and today. And once that is proven then we know for a fact that the entire story is a complete lie.

[Condottiere 40K]

[Gaidin]

If the above is to be termed 'conspiracy theory', then what term should be used for claims that Reptilians are on earth, or that Obama is merely inept?

Personally I think it would be hilarious if they could tie it to the President, but good luck. CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!

So the IRS cannot even afford a tech-savy person who would find the emails without destroying the data? If only there was some government agency that kept emails from people, that would be so much help now.

Have you seen the budgets outside the DoD? Have you seen what federal employees are paid? You don't work for the federal government for money, while tech-savvy people generally do (work for money). It's more a calling for service. And the tech-savvy people that do follow that calling and work for the federal government don't work for the traditional agencies maintaining or (trying to) recovering broken hardware. They're developing new products.

Stop forgetting the difference between IT and Engineering please. It's making you look not so bright. There's a damn reason you don't ask an Electrical Engineer to fix a broken tv. He'll shock himself to . Ask him design the next line? He's right at home. But someone's dying the moment you ask him to fix something. Same principle with Network Engineers and IT Maintenance techs. And these hard drives.

[Kyriakos]

Personally I think it would be hilarious if they could tie it to the President, but good luck. CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!


Have you seen the budgets outside the DoD? Have you seen what federal employees are paid? You don't work for the federal government for money, while tech-savvy people generally do (work for money). It's more a calling for service. And the tech-savvy people that do follow that calling and work for the federal government don't work for the traditional agencies maintaining or (trying to) recovering broken hardware. They're developing new products.

Stop forgetting the difference between IT and Engineering please. It's making you look not so bright. There's a damn reason you don't ask an Electrical Engineer to fix a broken tv. He'll shock himself to . Ask him design the next line? He's right at home. But someone's dying the moment you ask him to fix something. Same principle with Network Engineers and IT Maintenance techs. And these hard drives.

We can't all post so supernova-degree brightness level sentences, such as your claim that essentially the US government is too poor to afford some people who can save an email from a hard drive
But at least they recycle. Surely that was the focal point, not what in particular they quickly recycled.

[Gaidin]

We can't all post so supernova-degree brightness level sentences, such as your claim that essentially the US government is too poor to afford some people who can save an email from a hard drive
But at least they recycle. Surely that was the focal point, not what in particular they quickly recycled.

Hell even if the IRS had the budget they still wouldn't pay your geniuses what they wanted so I have no idea what your point is. Federal employee pay doesn't change from one agency to another. To say nothing of how the Republicans have been sort making an attempt to slash the IRS's budget for years. What were you expecting?

[Condottiere 40K]

I think it was in Westminster, but a lot of important commentary was attached by sticky notes on reports, so that the paper trail could be interrupted.

[Gaidin]

Well, they don't know who she sent them to of course. That's half the point of the subpoena. The other half being what she sent.

Well, they love grandstanding too anyway so they're never going to ask an IT person the right questions. They'll just keep out the Comissioner. Don't want to lose the ability to do that, for all it doesn't seem to bother him anyway.

[GrnEyedDvl]

Well, they don't know who she sent them to of course.

I could write a query in 10 minutes that would pull the subject and the recipient of every email she ever sent or received from the log files. Then someone would need to manually read through that and select which ones they wanted to actually read.

[Gaidin]

I could write a query in 10 minutes that would pull the subject and the recipient of every email she ever sent or received from the log files. Then someone would need to manually read through that and select which ones they wanted to actually read.

Read the second part of my post whenever you're ready to stop patting your own back.

[Farnan]

GED: I imagine the DOD uses the same email system as the rest of the Federal Government. When using the email it was common to set up the email to save to your hard drive and not to the server to prevent you from using up your limited email space. This is especially true if the IRS did set their server up to erase anything older than six months to save space.

[GrnEyedDvl]

GED: I imagine the DOD uses the same email system as the rest of the Federal Government. When using the email it was common to set up the email to save to your hard drive and not to the server to prevent you from using up your limited email space. This is especially true if the IRS did set their server up to erase anything older than six months to save space.

This applies to every government agency:

http://www.archives.gov/about/laws/fed-agencies.html

[Simon Cashmere]

I'm hearing IMAP and exchange, but nowhere reliable (yet).

I like IRS' internal email policy, that is still up for the moment:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1.10.3.2.3 (07-08-2011)
Emails as Possible Federal Records

1. All federal employees and federal contractors are required by law to preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the agency. Records must be properly stored and preserved, available for retrieval and subject to appropriate approved disposition schedules.
2. The Federal Records Act applies to email records just as it does to records you create using other media. Emails are records when they are:
   
   • Created or received in the transaction of agency business
   • Appropriate for preservation as evidence of the government’s function and activities, or
   • Valuable because of the information they contain
   
   
3. If you create or receive email messages during the course of your daily work, you are responsible for ensuring that you manage them properly. The Treasury Department’s current email policy requires emails and attachments that meet the definition of a federal record be added to the organization’s files by printing them (including the essential transmission data) and filing them with related paper records. If transmission and receipt data are not printed by the email system, annotate the paper copy. More information on IRS records management requirements is available at http://erc.web.irs.gov/Displayanswer...4&CategoryID=5 or see the Records Management Handbook, IRM 1.15.1 http://publish.no.irs.gov/IRM/P01/PDF/31421A03.PDF).
4. An email determined to be a federal record may eventually be considered as having historical value by the National Archivist prior to disposal. Therefore, ensure that all your communications are professional in tone.
5. Please note that maintaining a copy of an email or its attachments within the IRS email MS Outlook application does not meet the requirements of maintaining an official record. Therefore, print and file email and its attachments if they are either permanent records or if they relate to a specific case.

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part1/irm_01-010-003.html#d0e801

What I am more interested in is the Discovery Obligations policy, and the link referred to has 'gone dark.' It is Chief Counsel for the IRS notice 2010-008. I imagine that it sets out what you have to do, to get emails to ensure you comply with discovery. And now, even if you look on the Chief Counsel's website, listing all the many many notices...waddya know...it's missing.



Coincidence? I doubt it. I'm just not sure if there is the investigative tenacity or ability present in Washington or the media to get to the bottom of this. They are lucky it is not me who is on their case.

If I do find that IRS notice, I'll let you know. All is not lost, it might be lurking as a copy in some corner of the internet, somewhere.

http://apps.irs.gov/app/picklist/lis...escending=true

You know what else? The IRS has an email archiving contract with Sonasoft, whose motto is 'Email archiving - done right.'

This is just too good not to screenie:



http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/20/th...types=og.likes

[Gaidin]

Coincidence? I doubt it. I'm just not sure if there is the investigative tenacity or ability present in Washington or the media to get to the bottom of this. They are lucky it is not me who is on their case.

If I do find that IRS notice, I'll let you know. All is not lost, it might be lurking as a copy in some corner of the internet, somewhere.

The media has largely figured out what it wants to figure out. And that's that they investigated both liberal and conservative groups and, well, Lerner is exercising her right to remain silent because that's what her attorney recommends at the moment and there's not a damn thing Issa can do about it. Poor Issa. Frankly I think the asshat can take a long walk off a short cliff. But that's me. It might not even be a crime, but who the hell knows at this point. We won't know until he manages to pin something beyond her refusal to cooperate with the subpoena on her and it actually plays out in court. The potential is certainly something she doesn't need. But one thing's for certain, and you can bet your next tax return(hah!) on it, Issa and other Republican Representatives only give two about the Conservative groups. Now, Issa could probably get to the bottom of this hard drive crash if he wanted to, but as I told GrnEyedDvl while he was patting his own back, Issa wants to keep the Commissioner in the hotseat. If he figures what the emails are, he can't keep out the Commissioner for this big grand conspiracy. Even if the media decides to figure out the hard drive thing, which they won't, because they can't, because the IRS won't leak that information, because the IRS of all damn agencies won't leak information as pertains to private organizations or individuals(sin that sends you straight to hell, this is why these subpoenas to the IRS take so long), and to top it off they'll never have access to the network or the hardware. Finally, the Committees in the House sure as hell won't. If they did they'd lose their fire. Or at the least they'd have to pursue something technical that voters wouldn't know up from down in as opposed to these awesome press lines. Let's be clear. This crap ain't going nowhere where it actually matters.

[alex man142]

The media has largely figured out what it wants to figure out. And that's that they investigated both liberal and conservative groups and, well, Lerner is exercising her right to remain silent because that's what her attorney recommends at the moment and there's not a damn thing Issa can do about it. Poor Issa. Frankly I think the asshat can take a long walk off a short cliff. But that's me. It might not even be a crime, but who the hell knows at this point. We won't know until he manages to pin something beyond her refusal to cooperate with the subpoena on her and it actually plays out in court. The potential is certainly something she doesn't need. But one thing's for certain, and you can bet your next tax return(hah!) on it, Issa and other Republican Representatives only give two about the Conservative groups. Now, Issa could probably get to the bottom of this hard drive crash if he wanted to, but as I told GrnEyedDvl while he was patting his own back, Issa wants to keep the Commissioner in the hotseat. If he figures what the emails are, he can't keep out the Commissioner for this big grand conspiracy. Even if the media decides to figure out the hard drive thing, which they won't, because they can't, because the IRS won't leak that information, because the IRS of all damn agencies won't leak information as pertains to private organizations or individuals(sin that sends you straight to hell, this is why these subpoenas to the IRS take so long), and to top it off they'll never have access to the network or the hardware. Finally, the Committees in the House sure as hell won't. If they did they'd lose their fire. Or at the least they'd have to pursue something technical that voters wouldn't know up from down in as opposed to these awesome press lines. Let's be clear. This crap ain't going nowhere where it actually matters.

If the IRS was targeting Liberal groups, you'd be singing a different tune

[Gaidin]

If the IRS was targeting Liberal groups, you'd be singing a different tune

The only argument I've ever made myself is the undeniable fact that the law says something different from IRS policy. Everything else has been a counter to someone whining and moaning insensibly. Oh, and re: liberal groups, learn to read, and then read the second sentence of my post again, or for the first time, as might be appropriate in your case.

[Simon Cashmere]

Lerner is exercising her right to remain silent because that's what her attorney recommends at the moment and there's not a damn thing Issa can do about it.

She actually waived that right by giving a speech and then pleading the 5th. You cannot do that. You can either say nothing, but if you say *anything* you can be examined on that. The 5th amendment means right to silence - not, the right to set your side of the story, and then clam up. So, she could be proceeded against for contempt of congress - however - who authorises that prosecution? Our mate Eric Holder, and he's not going to do that. He was found in contempt of congress himself, he didn't care. He knew he wasn't going to recommend his own prosecution.

[Gaidin]

She actually waived that right by giving a speech and then pleading the 5th. You cannot do that. You can either say nothing, but if you say *anything* you can be examined on that. The 5th amendment means right to silence - not, the right to set your side of the story, and then clam up. So, she could be proceeded against for contempt of congress - however - who authorises that prosecution? Our mate Eric Holder, and he's not going to do that. He was found in contempt of congress himself, he didn't care. He knew he wasn't going to recommend his own prosecution.

Watch her. Just watch her. There's not a damn thing anybody can do to make her say a damn thing against herself in testimony. They might get a conempt charge but one, they could've gotten that for her saying nothing, and two, in the end they're scrambling to find evidence their own damn selves like the good little wannabe prosecutors they're pretending to be. And that's assuming they ever want to make a case instead of press one liners.