Realized deadliness and initiative is an issue after all.

[Cambion]

Didnt think so at fist, but in late game with its elite units it seriously hampering my romans, so I did a little experiment:

I gave initiative 1 to swordswords, 2 to longswords an spears and 3 to pikes. Deadliness 3 (4 for romans and 5 axes/falcata), 2, and 1 respectivly.

It seems to work. Heavy shortsword inf goes through medium inf rather fast, elite spears and longsword is still a slug fest but the legionairies win out in the end without too terrible casulties. Crack units even win occasionally against them. Pikes are devasting from the front but slowly so. Falcata units and romans wipe each other out.

I am however no good at modding and almost entirely sure this is just a makeshift measure. Quite possible I am kidding myself but I thought it wouldnt hurt to mention it.

[rjacko10]

Your set up does sound interesting.

Have you tried -1 to all your initiative values, so shortswords start on 0 and pikes are on 2? I say this because I'm a supporter of the recent interest in reducing the length of time melee units can hold the line against superior units.

I wouldn't mind helping you test it out if you upload the mod to steam.

[Cambion]

Your set up does sound interesting.

Have you tried -1 to all your initiative values, so shortswords start on 0 and pikes are on 2? I say this because I'm a supporter of the recent interest in reducing the length of time melee units can hold the line against superior units.

I wouldn't mind helping you test it out if you upload the mod to steam.

I wasnt even aware -1 is an option and I didnt change every unit so this is really no mod to speak off. Also the new setup seems to be helping with the barbarians but I am totally crushing greek factions which is no good either. I am beginning to believe the problem is with the normal stats not so much with deadliness or initiative. I think however that giving a little initiative to all units or goining with negative initiative if thats possible might be a good idea in any case. But the true modders have to figure that out.

[DakkaDon]

Sounds like you might have come up with a solid option to refine some of the combat elements people have been chatting about, i agree with the initiative being dropped by 1 across the board, and I might recommend slightly buffing swords charge bonus, and nerfing their melee defense.

[Cambion]

Sounds like you might have come up with a solid option to refine some of the combat elements people have been chatting about, i agree with the initiative being dropped by 1 across the board, and I might recommend slightly buffing swords charge bonus, and nerfing their melee defense.

Charge should be high, for defense I agree, after all thats the only difference between longswords and spears in my setup. Swords for attack, spears for defense (and anti-cav). Maybe the solution would be to slightly nerf initiative across the board and give larger deltas to attack, charge and defense stats.

For example:
Legionairies: High attack, medium charge and defense, low (but existing) initiative and high deadliness.
Barbarian long swords: High attack, High charge, relativly low defense, medium initiative, medium deadliness
Greek spears: Medium attack, high charge, high defense, medium initiative, low deadliness
Pikes: Medium attack, medium charde, high defense, high initiative, medium deadliness
and every variation thereof.

[icerunner5326]

This seems to make a lot of sense- it's not so much "deadliness vs initiative" but rather varying degrees of each for different types of weapons.

[DakkaDon]

Could you publish your changes as a minimod? If you chuck it over to me I'd be happy to help out with testing

[meerkatology]

I and some others have done extensive testing revolving this issue, refer to this 7 page thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...etely-retarded

It had even been brought to the attention of a mod. but unfortunately it has not been fixed in the current version.



while initiative is ridiculously overpowered, deadliness also has its own problems, a few points of it entirely bypasses armor, making armor useless. see this thread

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-is&highlight=


simply nerfing initiate is not a good idea, it will affect the units effectiveness against cavalry etc as well.
the real problem lies in the 0 initiative units i.e gladius, shortsword, 1h axe, being very underpowered. its better the buff these rather than nerfing initiative across the board.
its also a good idea to reduce their deadliness value and add alot more regular damage so armor actually makes some difference.


I will likely be releasing another submod to balance shortsword/gladii in the near future.

[FlashHeart07]

It is possible to edit the stats of the different weapon types so as not to have to edit every single unit. You may know this.
I too have had some small succes in altering the deadliness and initiative of some units. Improving pikes kill rate when attacked from the front and other stuff. Glad that someone is actually trying to do something instead of just complaining about units being unbalanced.
So if we could begin to post our results and what we change then perhaps we might be able to help balance the units and helping others to do it themselves.

[Cambion]

I didnt know this, unless you mean that you have to change the weapon tables too, which I did. I was just trying to give helpful feedback to the modders because I really enjoy the mod. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but I am a player. I only changed a number of units to test it out, as described above, nothing that cant be done or undone in a few minutes, but I am afraid thats all the time I can spare.

[FlashHeart07]

I didnt know this, unless you mean that you have to change the weapon tables too, which I did. I was just trying to give helpful feedback to the modders because I really enjoy the mod. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but I am a player. I only changed a number of units to test it out, as described above, nothing that cant be done or undone in a few minutes, but I am afraid thats all the time I can spare.

Wasnt trying to attack anyone and I only do what you do. But its nice to see that someone is doing something. It can be done or at least some

Sendt fra min GT-I9100 med Tapatalk

[Menulo]

yea initiative is super overpowered...
i was wondering why i had sutch a ing hard time against the illyrian hoplites and the light hoplites with my main line of royal/elite spartan hoplites. so i did some custom battle tests.
these are troops that cost at least twice as the illyrian hoplites do, yet they only JUST win 1v1. and only bacuase they never break, they actualy had more losses than the illyrians.

and the only thing they have on the spartans is that 1 initiative.
this doesnt only go for the illyrians though, even those cheap garrison type spear troops are a truggle to get trough with my elite hoplites since they have 3 initiative vs my 2. these are men that perhaps train twice a year vs troops that have known nothing but training for their whole live. yet you still lose 50% of them trying to hold a line, and they even get pushed back in the hoplite phalanx..

i like that they try a better balance method in DEI, since CA cant do it for (that whole spear beats cav. but sword beats spear is BS), but its deff. not there yet. there is no point in taking heavy hoplite's,. just take some of those spear units with 3 initiative for a fraction of the cost and upkeep and you will hardly notice a difference in your battles.

[TheOrangeProject]

DeI doenst do any balance at the moment. That has been said several times. Balancing will come with 1.0.