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  1. #1
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    Default NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Yo, what's Rasmussen smoking? and where can i get some of that good ? Colorado?



    it's one thing when politicians claim all sorts of stupid things but seriously? Russia? behind the growing anti fracking and environmentalist movement in Europe and the US?
    Russia 'secretly working with environmentalists to oppose fracking'

    Nato chief, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, says Moscow mounting disinformation campaign to maintain reliance on Russian gas

    The head of one of the world’s leading groups of democratic nations has accused Russia of undermining projects using hydraulic fracturing technology in Europe.
    Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato), and former premier of Denmark, told the Chatham House thinktank in London on Thursday that Vladimir Putin’s government was behind attempts to discredit fracking, according to reports.

    Rasmussen said: “I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organisations - environmental organisations working against shale gas - to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas.”

    He declined to give details of those operations, saying: “That is my interpretation.”
    Fracking, a process that involves blasting dense shale rocks with a high-pressure mixture of water, sand and chemicals to release the tiny bubbles of natural gas trapped within, has been the subject of protests in the UK and other parts of Europe, and is opposed by many environmental groups.
    It has been associated with methane leaks and the pollution of water sources in the US, and green campaigners fear that it will lead to a rise in the use of fossil fuels, exacerbating global warming.
    Rasmussen made clear that fracking should be used, in his view, to increase Europe’s energy security, by providing a new source of gas and oil supply.
    Nato's press office said the remarks were Rasmussen's personal views, not official policy.

    Nato was originally formed at the start of the cold war as an alliance of western states, including the US and many European nations, and historically has often opposed Russia. Rasmussen himself has spoken out previously against Russia's actions in Ukraine.

    A Nato official told the Guardian that Russia's influence on energy supplies was causing problems for Europe. The official said: "We don't go into the details of discussions among allied leaders, but Russia has been using a mix of hard and soft power in its attempt to recreate a sphere of influence, including through a campaign of disinformation on many issues, including energy. In general, the potential for Russia using energy supplies as a means of putting pressure on European nations is a matter of concern. No country should use supply and pricing terms as tools of coercion.
    "As energy supplies and routes are an issue mostly for the EU, we count on the EU to take into account the new security realities in Europe and look at whether there is a need to review diversifying energy sources and expanding energy infrastructure. Clearly, it is in the interest of all Nato allies to be able to have adequate energy supplies. This is critical to our economies, our security and our prosperity. We share a concern by some allies that Russia could try to obstruct possible projects on shale gas exploration in Europe in order to maintain Europe’s reliance on Russian gas."

    Surveys in the UK have found that there is a potentially large supply of shale gas and oil, perhaps enough to fulfil gas needs for several decades, though it is unclear how much of that can be profitably extracted. No shale gas has yet been produced in the UK.

    Russia, a major source of international gas supplies, recently signed a $400bn deal with China to supply gas for decades to come, and has threatened to cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, emphasising its willingness to exploit its dominant position in fossil fuel markets for political ends.

    But the future of fracking in Europe is less clear than Rasmussen acknowledged.
    The Polish government’s leading fracking expert recently told the Guardian that geology, rather than political concerns, was likely to be the main obstacle.

    Katarzyna Kacperczyk, under-secretary of state for non-European policy and public and economic diplomacy in the Polish foreign ministry, and its leading voice on fracking, told the Guardian: “It is all about geology, whether you can extract the gas. Different parts of the world have different geologies.”
    She said that there was “political will” to explore fracking in the country, but that even so there was no guarantee that Poland would be able to access its shale gas reserves. Poland is thought to have some of the best shale gas formations in Europe, but attempts to exploit it have so far come to nothing, though companies are still trying.
    In the US, the development of modern fracking technology has led to a boom in gas production, but that situation may not be easily replicated in other, more densely populated countries, with differing geologies.
    Green groups were swift to attack Rasmussen’s views, saying that they were not involved in any alleged Russian attempts to discredit the technology, and were instead opposed to it on the grounds of environmental sustainability.
    “The idea we’re puppets of Putin is so preposterous that you have to wonder what they’re smoking over at Nato HQ,” said Greenpeace, which has a history of antagonism with the Russian government, which arrested several of its activists on a protest in the Arctic last year.
    Andrew Pendleton, a campaigner at Friends of the Earth, added: “Perhaps the Russians are worried about our huge wind and solar potential and have infiltrated the UK government.”
    Source: http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ppose-fracking

    if it was some low level NATO manager, noone would bat an eyelid but this is coming from the head honcho of nato command.

    PErhaps the powers that be ie Rasmussen's handlers are worried that fracking will be continually be blocked in most western countries, leaving them out in the cold when all of that delicious fracking money opportunties are wasted.
    Last edited by Exarch; June 21, 2014 at 08:14 AM.

  2. #2
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Rasmussen '16.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  3. #3
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Rasmussen '16.
    Hell no, we need him to come back and clean out Christiansborg Parlament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Rasmussen, why is he still there? why this meaningless man is still sitting on his chair? Why NATO? We don't need NATO anymore, NATO is useless, it's no more an Alliance, its objective are totally outdated, today each country does what it wants, Germany always says 'Nein', France sometime is 'in' and sometime is 'out' whenever they like, we would need an European Army maybe with a centralized command, NATO is an ancient useless tool belonging to the past, even G. Bush had understood this.
    As a Northerner I'd never trade NATO for some complete toothless and incompetent alliance run(ruined) by Southerns. European Army is a joke, a bad one too.
    Last edited by Holger Danske; June 20, 2014 at 03:27 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    While I wouldn't say they are 'behind it' or masterminding it. I can definitely see them throwing money at groups that oppose it. When I was in Prague we used to get protests about the US putting a ballistic missile shield radar station in the Czech Republic. Average Czechs didn't seem to care, though. Then in briefings we find out the group organizing the protests and gatherings was the Czech Communist party. And the people funneling them most of their money was Russia lol. Most of the protests were small and stupid. Dozen or so people. But once they organized quite a few and marched from Wenceslaus square to the embassy in a big procession to deliver some kind of written declaration of some kind. They marched up the street, got to the embassy, and as our RSO won't out to accept their letter they all dispersed. They didn't even deliver the letter. They hung around less than five minutes in front of the embassy.

    Anyway, moral of the story is if you think backing domestic opposition groups in a particular country in order to prevent or hinder said country from doing something since its not in your best interests then you're being narrow-minded. Anything is possible in that realm. That's how the game works. It's probably not meant to be decisive. Just irritating.

  5. #5

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    I wonder how much money Shell gave him to say that? Or did they pay in Ogoni women or children? Their are massive problems with fracking, as can be seen with the devastation of ground water where it is being done, the fact that it is the worse kind of energy we could be using (even nuclear is better), the toxic crap it spews out, etc etc.
    Last edited by justicar5; June 20, 2014 at 09:41 AM.

  6. #6
    I WUB PUGS's Avatar OOH KILL 'EM
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Their are massive problems with fracking, as can be seen with the devastation of ground water where it is being done, the fact that it is the worse kind of energy we could be using (even nuclear is better), the toxic crap it spews out, etc etc.


    The lack of transparency from the energy companies fuels the speculation and paranoia. But this is changing, with Texas of all states taking the lead.

    Great slide. If only the hippies could see that it isn't an all-or-nothing game.
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...386593#slide-7
    According to the Department of Energy, if the transportation sector switched to natural gas, it would cut the nation's carbon-monoxide emissions by at least 90 percent, carbon-dioxide emissions by 25 and nitrogen-oxide emissions by up to 60.
    Please view the other slides too.

    Nuclear is one of the cleanest forms of energy. Except you have to bury the waste and its going to last forever. I don't really have a problem with it. Although due to the need for quintuple redundancy on the safety systems...... nuke isn't cheap, its not even economically viable. The reason we still use coal and oil fired plants is because its still stupidly cheap to run them. Switching to natural gas is only slighly more expensive than coal and the emissions put out by NG are far less destructive than those of coal.

  7. #7

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    But they won't let us use nuclear.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    But they won't let us use nuclear.
    You are presenting the issue as if we only could chose between a stinking pile of and an abysmal stinking pile of without any other alternatives. There are a lot of options that don't necessitate poisoning our environment or finding save shelters to store our radioactive waste for the next few thousand years.

    Statistically how probable is it that we find a place where the political and geological situation will be stable enough to store radioactive waste for a time that is longer than human civilization existed ?
    Last edited by SorelusImperion; June 20, 2014 at 12:02 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by SorelusImperion View Post
    You are presenting the issue as if we only could chose between a stinking pile of and an abysmal stinking pile of without any other alternatives. There are a lot of options that don't necessitate poisoning our environment or finding save shelters to store our radioactive waste for the next few thousand years.

    Statistically how probable is it that we find a place where the political and geological situation will be stable enough to store radioactive waste for a time that is longer than human civilization existed ?
    Here's a map for it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by SorelusImperion View Post
    You are presenting the issue as if we only could chose between a stinking pile of and an abysmal stinking pile of without any other alternatives. There are a lot of options that don't necessitate poisoning our environment or finding save shelters to store our radioactive waste for the next few thousand years.

    Statistically how probable is it that we find a place where the political and geological situation will be stable enough to store radioactive waste for a time that is longer than human civilization existed ?

    Australia hasn't had an earthquake in a quarter of a million years at least for starters.

  11. #11

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    There are two aspects, price control and economic benefit.

    If the Americans frack themselves, it will keep global energy markets fairly cheap regardless whether the Europeans do any backyard drilling, and screw with the Russian state budget.

    Economic benefit scaled against environmental impact and NIMBYism might succeed in the British Isles, but less likely on the continent in countries with finicky electorates.
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  12. #12
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Americans frack themselves
    the Europeans do any backyard drilling, and screw with the Russian
    Sorry, I just can't help myself.

    Given all the stories that RT does on American politics, showcasing almost nothing but all the negative aspects (as opposed to the US mainstream media, which does nothing but ass-kissing and supporting of "beltway" conventional wisdom), such a hypothetical Russian campaign to undermine European fracking wouldn't be surprising. The Russians know how to do propaganda...that and fracking carries legitimate environmental problems.

  13. #13

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    The anti-fracking protesters in Romania are funded by the Russians, so I won't be surprised if some of the Russian money also found their way into Greenpeace's accounts.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    The anti-fracking protesters in Romania are funded by the Russians, so I won't be surprised if some of the Russian money also found their way into Greenpeace's accounts.
    No they're not. Who lied to you?
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  15. #15

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No they're not. Who lied to you?
    Some devious people, no doubt. Who else would lie about such things?

    That being said, did you notice how the meetings scheduled for April 6th all over the country fizzled out, in spite of the major cites being plastered with posters announcing them?

    Could that be the result of the key organizers having a heart-to-heart conversation with the SRI (Romanian Intelligence Service)?

    SRI, mind you, didn't interfere with the truly massive protests against cyanide gold mining, even though the magnitude of the anti-cyanide gold mining protest did scare the government. By comparison, most of the anti-fracking protests happened in a single village, not all over the country like the anti-cyanide ones.

    So you can't use the line "SRI intimidates any protesters". SRI only took exception with the much less intense and much more localized anti-fracking protests.
    Last edited by Dromikaites; June 21, 2014 at 01:27 PM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    Some devious people, no doubt. Who else would lie about such things?

    That being said, did you notice how the meetings scheduled for April 6th all over the country fizzled out, in spite of the major cites being plastered with posters announcing them?

    Could that be the result of the key organizers having a heart-to-heart conversation with the SRI (Romanian Intelligence Service)?

    SRI, mind you, didn't interfere with the truly massive protests against cyanide gold mining, even though the magnitude of the anti-cyanide gold mining protest did scare the government. By comparison, most of the anti-fracking protests happened in a single village, not all over the country like the anti-cyanide ones.

    So you can't use the line "SRI intimidates any protesters". SRI only took exception with the much less intense and much more localized anti-fracking protests.
    No idea what you're on about. There were protests in Oradea and Timis at the beginning of April. In fact there were several other anti-frakin protests with several hundred atendees organized immediately after Easter and in May. But hey maybe it was the Russians who told the mayor of Sanmartin to give up his post and organize a referendum to unite with Oradea just to delay Nis' fraking operations in the area.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No idea what you're on about. There were protests in Oradea and Timis at the beginning of April. In fact there were several other anti-frakin protests with several hundred atendees organized immediately after Easter and in May. But hey maybe it was the Russians who told the mayor of Sanmartin to give up his post and organize a referendum to unite with Oradea just to delay Nis' fraking operations in the area.
    Protests in the areas where fracking might happen make sense. Not because fracking is bad in itself (that may or may not be the case). But because the thieves in the government got their bribes and authorized the exploration without taking into account the interests of the locals. In the UK the exploration and the extraction of gas would result in the local community being paid a lot of money. So even if say the soil becomes unsuited for agriculture, the people would have enough money to move elsewhere and live comfortably there.

    It also makes sense to forbid fracking in prime touristic areas like Sanmartin or Mangalia, for the simple reason tourism is a "never exhausting resource", unlike the gas.

    That being said, the protests are never spontaneous. Somebody needs to organize them. Somebody needs to go door to door and explain the people in the area the dangers of fracking. I don't believe for a second the peasants in a village in the middle of nowhere like Pungesti knew the risks of fracking before somebody from outside the village opened their eyes.

    Organizing protests in places far away from the fracking sites require effort as well. Somebody needs to start a campaign calling for protests, somebody needs to apply for an authorization for the protest meeting to take place, somebody needs to print posters and flyers, somebody needs to write blogs and to direct people to those blogs, etc.

    It is the job of the SRI to find out who those "somebody" are and what makes them tick. There is a big difference between:

    1) having a legitimate reason to protest (I do believe the fracking issue is not handled properly in Romania) and

    2) being paid by a hostile power (Russia) to organize protests on a legitimate issue.

    If the SRI discovers those people who organize the protests (printing posters, travelling to the remote areas to inform the peasants, etc) are simply concerned citizens, they let things go their natural way. Like it happened in the case of the anti-cyanide protests.

    In Bucharest those protests were huge, even though Bucharest is hundreds of kilometers away from the actual mining site. As a result of those huge protests the government and the parliament got scared and cancelled the law authorizing it.

    In the case of fracking, the protests never got to be of the same magnitude, even though, compared to cyanide-mining, fracking might affect much more people.

    The largest protests were contained to the areas directly affected by fracking. Unlike in the case of cyanide mining, they never took off in Bucharest, for example. And the country-wide massive protest scheduled for April 6th fizzled out, in spite of the city being plastered with posters.

    The only way to make a protest fizzle out is to know who the organizers are and to invite them to talk about it over a cup of coffee, in the basements of the local Secret Service Office. A good talk and a good coffee may change people's minds, helping them to see the errors of their ways. Especially if the host of the coffee talk offers the good coffee together with bank records and surveillance materials in which the guest is starring. No need to break bones over the issue. The organizers shake hands with the nice SRI officer and go quietly to their homes, never to engage in such things again.

    One cannot invite to a cup of coffee the people of Sanmartin or Pungesti because those, once they get the information about the risks of fracking, don't need any organizer on Putin's payroll to organize their protest. So protests will continue to happen in Sanmartin or Pungesti (and maybe even in Mangalia).

    One can however have a fruitful conversation with Putin's employees, resulting in nothing much happening in major cities not directly affected by fracking.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Exarch
    it's one thing when politicians claim all sorts of stupid things but seriously? Russia? behind the growing anti fracking and environmentalist movement in Europe and the US?
    Rasmussen is 100% right on this, right on the money. This is totaly the case since the over 40 years in western europe. All the green party clowns showed up after the student riots are agents of moscow, the 5th column to slower the capitalist progress down and give the soviet block an strategic advance.

    Rasmussen is totaly right on this.

    Everyone who read a book about soviet espionage ever should get that.
    Last edited by Tiberios; June 22, 2014 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Off topic part removed

  19. #19

    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    To be fair, if a car passes by an drives over puddle, putting dirt on Rasmussen's pants, he'd blame Russia for it. It is the old Cold War mentality in which a lot of Western figures still live in.
    I won't even go into details about how Russian government doesn't give a dusty about environment. However, Western elites would want to silence any opposition in Western countries, by trying to link any dissent to mysterious "Russian support". Welcome to 1984.

  20. #20
    Caelifer_1991's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: NATO Chief Insists Russia is Backing Anti Fracking Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    To be fair, if a car passes by an drives over puddle, putting dirt on Rasmussen's pants, he'd blame Russia for it. It is the old Cold War mentality in which a lot of Western figures still live in.
    I won't even go into details about how Russian government doesn't give a dusty about environment. However, Western elites would want to silence any opposition in Western countries, by trying to link any dissent to mysterious "Russian support". Welcome to 1984.
    Who said anything about Russia caring for the environment?

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