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Thread: Preview: Daco-Thracians

  1. #21
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Well in english I've generally seen the word spelled as pezhetairoi but I guess you might not be english What I was getting at (in a roundabout way) is that Klerouchoi in thrace would have been the macedonian/greek soldier settlers from Lysimachus's time or even before/after that time in thrace fighting for thrace to defend the land they owned. Macedonians would generally be better trained (pezhetairoi http://books.google.ca/books?id=YPqz...tairoi&f=false) but since they were macedonian/greek settlers, I guess they could just be klerouchoi instead because maybe they would have been influenced by the thracian culture in terms of armour as influence of original seems to have affected settlers to a large extent in general.

    Also I believe Iphicrates imitated the thracians when creating those reforms , I need to find some sources too but I will edit them in To note a few things, one the word sarissa is not greek. It originally meant long spear and thracian horsemen were known to have also used long spears from the 5th century bc onwards. Thracian Sarissophoroi were extensively used by Alexander. Thracian Sarissa> "D.Head, "The Thracian Sarissa", Slingshot 214 (2001), 10-13" And also an interesting read on the reforms here http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates1.html


    Didymus "He (Philip) received his third wound during the foray against the Triballi, when one of his pursuers thrust a sarissa into his right thigh and made him lame"

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=rR88jF6taekC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Thracian+sarissophoroi&source=bl&ots=gzgRpsPjs2&sig=ZFdgegUjqu5YvnPvqv2NKzj8WTs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_pM1VJuaLpCXyATq-IFo&ved=0CEYQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Thracian%20sarissophoroi&f=false


    Europa Barbaroums interpretation of thracian prodromoi was this and I feel they studied thracian cavalry more than I did, which is why I included them as a source. Where I've looked so far it supports the fact that thracian cavalry used long lances and were the among the very best light/medium cavalry. (medium due to leather armour *The Thracians 700 BC-AD 46 >Men-at-Arms< by Christopher Webber and Angus McBride, 2001, page 5)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...kans#ref476014

    Also with advanced metal working I am sure they would eventually be interested in armouring themselves more thoroughly with time. Rather than just cloth they would use at least leather armour ,which seems to be lacking since it was used, or with bronze/scale armour with the influx of wealth. As evidenced by the rich thracians eventual adaptation of the scythians technologically superior scale armour. In general I think they would at least be open to at least a hoplite phalanx due to the greek influence, although thracian influence on the Iphicrates phalanx suggests they would be more open to a macedonian style phalanx, especially considering macedonia was closer than athens along with all what I listed before. I see that even the scythians have a greek form of troop type. So it's sad you aren't open to this. Not only that but the thracians were noted to be able to form and hold a line in formation... as you said yourself "“Thracians defended themselves skillfully against the Theban cavalry […] closing their ranks in battle order as typical of their country” (Thucydides, Peloponnesian War, 30)" So they weren't just skirmishing peltasts who ran away all the time. If they had too they'd stand and fight depending on their current strategy/tactics according to each battle. I won't argue that they did not prefer to skirmish but I will say that they should be allowed access to the other units that they would have likely had at the time. e.g. a form of pikemen/hoplites.




    I do notice that there aren't really any greaves being used, and that there are no shields strapped to the backs of horsemen either. And the thracians were noted to use shields among many cavalry who didn't at that time. And I wonder why there aren't many thracian helmets like the one above. I thought thracian face masks were used more than what's shown.

    On this artwork for example it seems there is a face mask with a helmet or maybe I'm just seeing things, possibly a shield on the back too. Along with greaves.





    Maybe greaves are missing due to this?



    But I wonder why there aren't at least a few...





    Also since it's bothering me a bit, that you might bring up that you think only thracian cavalry used sarissa's, peltasts were also known to have used them on foot. Hence the idea about Iphicrates reforms.
    Last edited by z3n; October 08, 2014 at 03:55 PM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Sure, the correct spelling is Pezhetairoi, and no, I'm not English, but actually, being a Greek word, the misspelling is to ascribe to lack of time and fast typing ;-)

    About the Thracian as line troops, I had actually implemented the machairophoroi, that are in fact attested in historical text and that are described fighting in tight formation.
    About the possibility of Macedonian-style Thracian infantry in phalanx formation with a sarissa, actually I don't have any literary evidence of that, not of our timeframe (271 onward), not before or after...

    About the face mask helmet, as far as I know it was far more uncommon than other less elaborate helmets, at least in the archaeological findings.

    For the greaves, as far as I know they were also a relatively "rich" element.
    Maybe I should ask Iutland to implement in the future some greaves along the Machairophoroi and the Rhomphaiophoroi.

  3. #23
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Well I read that they had employed greek mercanary hoplites so they definitely recognized the need and differentiated their style of fighting depending on who they were fighting. The same with their northern tribes adaptation of scythian armour/fighting styles. I wish the thracians had written about themselves but http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home...abs1=standard&

    It doesn't seem to want to show, so I put a picture instead

    A homeric reference that seems to imply a phalanx back in the day, by the time it's 275bc with greek/macedonian settlers in thrace I'm sure there would be a phalanx or two somewhere in there.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Frankly I don't see the problem.
    There is a unit that can fight in a tight formation... I didn't design a thracian roster with ONLY loose skirmishers... simply I emphasize on the skirmish part, that apparently, as far as I know, played a huge part in the Thracian forces.
    The fact that the unit is a swordsman unit depends on the reference that I found, that spoke about machairophoroi.
    Again, as I recall, Thracia was a levy basin for troops hired by the Hellenistic powers mainly to enhance their otherwise monolithic battle lines with something more accustomed with mobility, hit and run, and so on.

    Besides, an Homeric reference I think can't be taken seriously for our timeframe -and for Thracians, even if the specific line in the epic tale is referred to Thracians... maybe could be useful for Bornze Age Achaeans-... furthermore, speaking of warriors that make a shiledwall massing themselves to protect the body of a fallen leader to avoid it being spoiled... I wouldn't define it a "military tactic".

    However, again, I don't want to say that Thracians NEVER fought in tight formations (machairophoroi are an example), and furthermore, casual presence of some rich hoplite-like panoply, if I recall correctly, is attested in the V-IV, BUT in III b.C. onward the strong celtic influence in the area made the Thyreos the main shield for line infantry.

  5. #25
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Well the problem is that they don't have the ability to recruit a phalanx. I said previously their army was gigantic for the time,and if they fielded all their troops at once it would be 150000 more or less men. I'm suggesting there was a percentage among them that had a tradition within their society which did use the phalanx. Due to the massive scale of their army and due to the large numbers that favoured skirmish tactics, yes it would be assumed simply as a generalization that people are prone to making, that thracians were skirmishers period. Im saying that there is evidence if you take it as such that they/macedonian/greek settlers used the phalanx in defense of thrace. Plus that they knew how to form a shieldwall does suggest that it was used and as such could be considered one of their tactics, again because of the reference to how they used close formations... So, all Im saying is that thrace should at least have access to an AoR recruitment of pikemen, but I would prefer to see them have a real recruitment of a phalanx type unit (macedonian or greek).
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Does Bithynia get the Machairophoroi Bithynoi units only in certain cities or provinces?

  7. #27

    Default Re: Preview: Daco-Thracians

    Quote Originally Posted by dhampy View Post
    Does Bithynia get the Machairophoroi Bithynoi units only in certain cities or provinces?
    No they are not AoR restricted. Available from Bronze Workshop.

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