Ballistas actually firing bolts.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

I'm kind of surprised no one has brought this up before.

But is it not possible to change the ammunition the ballista has from a stone destroying rock, to a larger version of the bolt that the scorpion/polybos fires?

I feel like it's such a huge change from the original Rome ballista that fired an actual bolt.

Is there a reason or any historical evidence for ballistae throwing stones capable of bashing down stone walls? I always thought that was the realm of onagers and catapults.

Maybe it's a minor thing, but every time I fire a giant rock from a ballista I can't help but feel that something is a little off.

[Fozzie]

I know there is evidence that they were used to fire both bolts and stone projectiles. I personally think it would be cool if they had an ammunition option like the flaming shot that allowed them to fire bolts.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Now that would be awesome to see. Both bolts for anti infantry, accurate and long range, and then shorter range stones for anti structure work.

[KAM 2150]

Ballistas were original stone throwers before invention of onagers.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Ballistas were original stone throwers before invention of onagers.

Weren't the ones in game what evolved from the oxybeles and gastraphetes? Those both simply fired bolts, not stones. Unless I'm completely uninformed on that.

I know the larger ballistae represented in game were very capable of throwing stones, but did the Romans not primarily use them with bolts instead of stones?

[Matmannen]

Weren't the ones in game what evolved from the manual and cherio ballistae? Those both simply fired bolts, not stones. Unless I'm completely uninformed on that.

I know the larger ballistae represented in game were very capable of throwing stones, but did the Romans not primarily use them with bolts instead of stones?

Didn't the romans use the Scorpions to shoot bolts? From the way the Balistae is built it's quite clear that it is supposed to shoot rocks.

PS. When you fire somethng you fire it because there is actuall fire involved, like gunpowder loads being ignited by fire. Bows ad catapults shoot...

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Didn't the romans use the Scorpions to shoot bolts? From the way the Balistae is built it's quite clear that it is supposed to shoot rocks.

PS. When you fire somethng you fire it because there is actuall fire involved, like gunpowder loads being ignited by fire. Bows ad catapults shoot...

Scorpions also shoot bolts, but the ballista as a device was able to shoot bolts and stone shot, though everything I'd ever read seemed to imply that bolts were far more common and they were used in an anti infantry rather than anti fortification role in the early republic.
Nothing about the design AT ALL makes it in anyway '"clear that it's supposed to shoot rocks". It's a tracked groove simply made that way for the easiest mode to let a projectile slide from one end to the other while staying in a straight line.

What's your source for saying they very clearly are only supposed to fire rocks? According to Commentarii de Bello Gallico it was mostly used for firing long, wooden spear like darts with a metal cap that could accurately piece an armoured enemy at up to 500 yards.


Why even post that last part? Fire is common parlance for the expulsion of an object in a ballistic fashion, whether by gun, bow, or anything else.
If you really want to be extremely nitpicky for absolutely no reason, you're incorrect with shoot. It should be launch.


Edit:
I should clarify, given the time frame of the GAME. Post Philip II and Alexander the Great, the ballista took on a role more closely suited to anti personnel field artillery than the siege weapon it had been used as previously. An onager did a far better job of hammering down walls, but was too inaccurate to effectively use against troops formations as a ballista could be by the nature of the difference between the two weapon types.
I also think there is some confusion on the subject about actually what type of ballistae are supposed to be represented in game.

[Matmannen]

Why even post that last part? Fire is common parlance for the expulsion of an object in a ballistic fashion, whether by gun, bow, or anything else.
If you really want to be extremely nitpicky for absolutely no reason, you're incorrect with shoot. It should be launch.

I only wrote that a funny note since saying that bows fire is both historically and physically incorrect. Really the only reason why people say that nongunpowder of fire using weapons fire is because firearms took over and became the new standard. Now we are so used to saying that weapons fire that we have accepted the fault as the norm. The only issue I really have with the term "fire" is in historical movies or historical games. In RTW it was pretty funny to hear the roman centurion shout "FIRE" when he wanted the legionaries to throw their pila...

[luck_ponte]

What's your source for saying they very clearly are only supposed to fire rocks? According to Commentarii de Bello Gallico it was mostly used for firing long, wooden spear like darts with a metal cap that could accurately piece an armoured enemy at up to 500 yards.

I always though that the weapons described there were actually scorpions... oO In the version I read it (a translation to my native Portuguese), the word 'tormento' (roughly translates to 'torment') was used to decribe the weapon, so it was not clear to me if it was either a scorpion or a ballista...so not conclusive, I guess, don't know how the latin version calls it

[the lightning legion]

the way ballistae are angled implies they are meant to shoot rocks at people

[Ivan_Moscavich]

I always though that the weapons described there were actually scorpions... oO In the version I read it (a translation to my native Portuguese), the word 'tormento' (roughly translates to 'torment') was used to decribe the weapon, so it was not clear to me if it was either a scorpion or a ballista...so not conclusive, I guess, don't know how the latin version calls it

It was "Menace" in the English version I have. The part I recall in relevancy was where he mentions "A wooden shaft, over (something, a meter?) in length with an iron tip point". The way it sounded the projectile was larger than what was used in Scorpions, seeing as how they were smaller.

Translations of foreign works are always differing it seems. But seeing as I don't speak Latin, the English version was what I had to get.

the way ballistae are angled implies they are meant to shoot rocks at people

I'm not sure the angle would nessicarily denote what projectile it was firing unless it was really steep. They are large though, infact, the models right now seems to be using the model for the giant ballista rather than the smaller versions they were in vanilla (though I am using an artillery mod so that might be why they seem so much bigger now).

They can still fire at point blank in front of them though, so the angle isn't too severe for them to be firing bolts, and at long range you're going to want the bolt to have a slight arc as it is.

[AnthoniusII]

Gentlemen...Inorder to understand things better is to know the exact names of the devices...
Capapult (gr: catapeltes= anti shield device) was originaly a arrow thrower. The exact name was "Oxiveles Katapeltes".
Catapult that later transformed to throw stones was know as Lithovolos Katapeltes.
Both had the same size and shape (like the "balista" is in Rome 2 game).
Actually the term ballista is a middle ages one and refers to medieval primitive large bolt throwers that had not the accuracy or rate of fire of the Roman Scorpions (versions of the smaller oxiveles katapeltes).
If we want to name things accuratly :
This IS NOT a catapult but an Onager (gr: οναγρος).


This is a Lithovolos Katapeltes

This is an Oxiveles Katapeltes

They are similar and both of their sizes could be from tiny to huge ones!
And this is the fully mechanical polivolos katapeltes (throws arrows) the created in Hellenistic Alexandreia

Romans did not ever acomplished to fully coppy that version and adopted a previus and simplier one:

This was also known as polivolos (many shots) katapeltes.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

So the ballista we had in Rome 1 was a Oxiveles Katapeltes, and the one in Rome II looks like the Lithovolos Katapeltes, except mounted on a six wheeled chassis/cart (which would be appropriate given the size instead of the two wheels of the smaller one).

I'd certainly much prefer the Ballista we had in Rome 1. Longer range but slower reload than the Scorpion, but both fundamentally anti personnel with onagers used for anti structure work.
Though if I recall correctly, the ballistae were able to break open the wooden gates of the basic palisade wall.

[AnthoniusII]

Remember tha we -modern people- use generic names for everything...Ancient people though were very presice when they described something or someone.
Both katapelts (oxiveles and lithovolos) used the exact same mechanic and principals.
Greeks found out (Syracuse) soon enough that throwing stones in balistic orbit was usefull against stable targets like walls but totaly unfited against moving targets!
So they modified that device to launch "javelins" against moving targets. Actually it was first used to force wall defenders to leave their positions on walls.
Syracusian/Karthage wars.
Phillip II was the first Greek King that created a corp that in modern terms would be artilery and enginears corps all together.
Those troops builded siege equipment but also builded camps, bridges etc...
That exact corp helped Alexander the Great to take Tyrus.
Later those devices builded in a huge varietion of sizes as field artlery, siege artilery and naval artilery as well!
Remember ETW ? There were a bunch of cannon shapes and sizes..The exact principal existed in those machines too!