Elephants are way too good at melee (when not charging).

[Caligula's_Horse]

First off, I'm new here, and let me say, I love the mod. But now, to business.

I ended up testing some units in custom battles to get a feel for the mod, and aside from some horse archer units being better at close combat then lancers (which I already saw a thread about, so I won't elaborate), I noticed elephants are far, far too good at melee.

Now, I'm not talking about their charge. Something that massive should have a frighteningly effective charge, the problem is that once the fighting's bogged down and the units got involved in a prolonged melee, the elephants would always come out on top. I tried it with spears, pikes, swords, in and out of formation, nothing helped; even when the elephants didn't charge at all (I walked them to the enemy, or had them charge head first into a properly braced phalanx), the infantry would always loose and the elephants would never suffer more then minimal casualties, often none at all. It would appear knock back combined with DEI's reduced lethality is a powerful combination (as if elephants weren't already overpowered in vanilla...).
Cavalry actually preformed better, likely due to being immune to the elephant's knock back. This is the exact opposite of what one would expect historically, as elephants were supposed to frighten horses senseless, but infantry that held its ground would come out on top.

I'm not sure how to go about a solution exactly, but obviously knock back is the problem. Maybe infantry should be immune to it unless the elephant is charging. Lower morale and easier panic from non-missile sources might also be worth considering, seeing as elephants were historically notorious for being fickle under pressure, and I doubt they'd withstand the rigors of a prolonged melee.

[antred]

Same problem with chariots. As long as they're moving even a little bit during combat, even at snail's pace, they'll inflict horrific casualties.

[dowdpride]

I agree with the Elephants, but I disagree about chariots. My Pontic generals chariots always do casualties, but die incredibly easily.

[Matmannen]

I agree with the Elephants, but I disagree about chariots. My Pontic generals chariots always do casualties, but die incredibly easily.

Yeah, that I agree with. When using chariots I always have to pick my targets carefully, for example driving chariots straight into infantry, even iranian spearmen, and you can lose several chariots, even the general if you are unlucky...

[Igor85]

Elephants already got nerfed. My elite infantry is way more effective than my elephant unit.

[Andersf]

just one volley pilas, or a couple of volleys with any other weapons with rout the elephants... no need to nerf them anymore just use missile troops...

[Caligula's_Horse]

just one volley pilas, or a couple of volleys with any other weapons with rout the elephants... no need to nerf them anymore just use missile troops...

If they're that easily driven back by missiles, maybe they need better resistance against those and having their offensive melee capabilities weakened to compensate.
They can currently smash their way through hoplites in phalanx or even pikemen without even bothering to charge.

As for chariots, I never found those to be in need of a nerf. They're devastating if they can find an open flank, but so long as they can't smash through an unengaged unit, they're fine. Similar tier shock cavalry already does the same thing better.

[TheOrangeProject]

If they're that easily driven back by missiles, maybe they need better resistance against those and having their offensive melee capabilities weakened to compensate.
They can currently smash their way through hoplites in phalanx or even pikemen without even bothering to charge.

huh? My eles die pretty fast in combat. Also i am not impressed by the charge dmg. I saw cav doing one charge with 100 kills. But on the other hand, i always on vh or legendary. Things are different on this setting for many units.

I dont think they have to be stronger against missiles. Thats the weak point of that unit. Especially because there are amoured eles in the game with a higher armor rating

[Matmannen]

huh? My eles die pretty fast in combat. Also i am not impressed by the charge dmg. I saw cav doing one charge with 100 kills. But on the other hand, i always on vh or legendary. Things are different on this setting for many units.

I dont think they have to be stronger against missiles. Thats the weak point of that unit. Especially because there are amoured eles in the game with a higher armor rating

Agree with you there. I have always found the elephant charge kind of anticlimactic. Historically factions like Carthage used the elephants to charge in the front lines breaking up the enemy. If you try to employ this tactic in game you are most likely to have them get caught in melee and die...

[Caligula's_Horse]

huh? My eles die pretty fast in combat. Also i am not impressed by the charge dmg. I saw cav doing one charge with 100 kills. But on the other hand, i always on vh or legendary. Things are different on this setting for many units.

I dont think they have to be stronger against missiles. Thats the weak point of that unit. Especially because there are amoured eles in the game with a higher armor rating

I was always under the impression that a game should be balanced for normal difficulty, and tested accordingly.
Either way, a unit's sole vulnerability being missiles is bad balancing, and without difficulty modifiers, that's currently the situation. Test it yourself; the only thing I managed to find that could take them on at close combat was cataphracts. None of the infantry, even frontal pikemen, managed it.

Historically, elephants could never smash through formations of heavy infantry that stood their ground. They were only really useful against armies that weren't familiar with elephants (pure psychological shock value rather then physical capacity for harm), or to scare horses witless. In game, they're depicted as more of a battering ram that's surprisingly less effective against cavalry.

[Damocles]

Double post, for some reason.

[Damocles]

In a perfect world, they'd have incredible shock and demoralizing value, would be slightly more vulnerable to fighting infantry units that don't break, and not die quite so easily to javelins or arrows.

There have been battles where elephants were reported to have hundred of arrows or dozens of javelins sticking out of them, and still going berserk.

[GatorMarine1833]

If you look at ancient battles involving elephants, generally not many elephants are actually killed. They should be able to take on any unit head on in melee. They would more probably be taken down by multiple units converging on them, and even then I would think that they'd more likely end up being frightened than slaughtered.

Other than Zama, most battles involving Hellenistic armies and elephants ended with very few elephants being killed. More often then not they simply left the field. Even the battle of Raphia, which involved a clash of nearly 200 elephants ended with only some 21 elephants being killed (and most of those seem to have been killed by other elephants).

Basically my point is that the battle of Zama seems to be the exception rather than the rule, and even in that case it may be that some (if not most) of Hannibal's elephants were not killed, but rather allowed to pass through the Roman ranks and fled.

The large Indian Elephants would have been very difficult beasts to kill.

Edit: I would add, too that during Pyrrhus's battles with Rome, Heraclea, Asculum and Beneventum, no sources state that any of his Elephants actually died (at least, none that I'm aware of). He had twenty elephants at the beginning of his campaigns, and if I recall, by the time he was back in Greece fighting the Spartans he was said to have 19 still.

[ThatWhichThinks]

I think the gameplay balance for elephants is actually just about perfect now. If your elephants get bogged down and flanked you are in trouble. And if the flanking force has javelins? Forget it, your elephants are history. That said, they function as super heavy cavalry, with their greater staying power compensated by their near-inability to disengage from combat.

From a historical and practical perspective, I think elephants may be a bit underpowered as is. They cannot charge through units and trample them. Even the elephant's charge is way too weak, and they seem to be completely unable to move through loose infantry formations, which they should flatten easily.

Please don't nerf the elephants any more than they already have been. As for chariots, I already find them pretty useless. They get bogged down way too easily, die instantly when they do, and route after only a few casualties. I think that heavy shock cavalry is strictly better than any chariot as is; no reason to nerf them even more.

[Tripledot]

Chariots I see as more of a unit for cutting down routing units.

[pyccos]

i played some one cant remember the name in head to head his chariots killed 400+ men, his elephants the same.

when used properly they are OP as

[ABH2]

There seems to be a difference between when I'm using elephants and when the AI uses them. When they're mine? They seem to die if not moving real fast. Even when hitting from behind. With the AI? I have to use missile troops or it takes forever and I suffer mass casualties. They rarely rack up the same kills for me. Maybe I'm just using them wrong, but I don't see how. In vanilla, I racked up far more kills with them. They were basically wrecking machines.

I find their charge entirely pathetic. That was really their whole point. Intimidation, and break up the enemy formation at the start of a battle. They do neither, really. They are just really awkward. That's an issue with CA's design, though, as opposed to DeI.

They should also be anti-cavalry units. Ideally, cavalry should be afraid of them and refuse to charge. They should serve two basic functions - break up the enemy formation at the start, and a force to pin down cavalry.

Other than Zama, most battles involving Hellenistic armies and elephants ended with very few elephants being killed. More often then not they simply left the field. Even the battle of Raphia, which involved a clash of nearly 200 elephants ended with only some 21 elephants being killed (and most of those seem to have been killed by other elephants).

At the Hydaspes, Alexander's men were described as having to kill the elephants. I wonder/suspect that there was a huge difference in their training and the handlers between the Indians and the Hellenistic/westerners who used them. It was a very messy process where the infantry had to surround and stab them. Resulted in heavy casualties.

If charged into a hoplite or phalanx, they should do a good deal of damage. Historically, they were entirely capable of it.

[Summary]

I agree, I use elephant mercenaries when in Africa cause they are way too good. One unit of 9 elephants can take out two units of 240 Libyan spearmen at once, without taking any casualties. I am not complaining because I can hire elephants, if I could not, maybe I would be more vocal about it. But I do acknowledge than 240 men unable to kill at least 1 of 9 elephants is rather inaccurate, even more inaccurate since they are spearmen.

[szabz]

Elephants are not OP. I once had an entire unit of elephants get killed by two javelin skirmishers. One was bait though, and after a few volleys they were going psycho.

Chariots are also not OP. I lost an entire unit by charging into the rear of some Nizagan. If they units are routing though, holy you can kill everyone in seconds.

Check this:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mxfvbq.jpg

[Summary]

Elephants are not OP. I once had an entire unit of elephants get killed by two javelin skirmishers. One was bait though, and after a few volleys they were going psycho.

Chariots are also not OP. I lost an entire unit by charging into the rear of some Nizagan. If they units are routing though, holy you can kill everyone in seconds.

Check this:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mxfvbq.jpg

With all due respect, the OP is not talking about their ability to die versus missile infantry, especially javelins, even I am well aware of this. In fact horse javelinmen are the best counters because they can even maintain their distance and take turns taunting the elephants, while the others launch missiles.

The OP is talking about their abilities in melee, which is (again with all due respect) ridiculously over-powered. Yes elephants can wreak havoc against most light armored troops that are scattered. But against a a tight formation of infantry that outnumber them, elephants shouldn't just end up killing the entire unit without sustaining a loss. 9 elephants killing 240 men without losing a single unit is very unrealistic. Yes, swordsmen would have a hard time combating elephants because of the reach of their weapon, but even they can hack at the legs of the elephant. For spearmen it should be all the more easy. Spears are sturdier than javelins and can be used to pierce the elephant at a relative safe range. Pikes are even more effective. But I won't talk about pikes because the Macedonian phalanx does counter elephants. A hoplite phalanx should also counter elephants, just not as good as the Macedonian phalanx, but still a 1.5 to 2 meter range is a very reasonable advantage versus an elephant. Unfortunately in the game, the buffer distance/reach of all spearmen is no more different than swordsmen. If you observe the animation, about 70-80% of the spear is behind the shield with only a minority of the shaft and spearhead sticking out!

I sincerely wish that one day, someone will change this appearance of the way the spear is held. Spears have their fulcrum at the rear end, due to a heavy counterbalance position at the rear tip of the spear. (Greeks called this the sarouter or "lizard-killer").

Furthermore, when fighting against an elephant most infantry would not stand in the way of its charge and simply make way for it to pass. While it passes they would attack its flanks with their spears and swords. You will rarely see a formation (not a tight immobile formation) stay and await the charge from the elephant. Also elephants and horses have their limitations, they will not just follow orders and charge on a wall of pikes or spears, they will maintain range and protest going anywhere close to obvious danger. To trap them Alexander the Great created pockets to channel chariots and elephants into an alley created by men moving apart. They passed harmlessly through them until they trapped and then butchered by the hypaspists or the rear guard

I also sincerely wish that one day, something can be done to include animal behavior towards obvious danger. The AI and even I shouldn't be able to charge my cavalry (be it elephants, camels, or horses) into a wall of pikes simply because the moment they get close enough, they will refuse going any closer. And will choose to run around the danger should an opening present itself.

*Note: I am not trying to provoke anyone with this comment. I feel it might pull a few nerves, but have tried my utmost best to format it to the most neutral tone possible. I fully respect and admire the work and scope of the DeI team, who have considerably improved the experience of Rome 2 from the Vanilla version. They are arguably the best mod out there for this game. Of course there are changes that I wish to be made but, I think it is the limitation of the game that prevents the modders from achieving them.