Roman auxiliaries --> new Roman barracks line?

[Belgae]

Lectori Salutem!

With all the great new Roman auxiliary units in 0.9, I wonder how many of you share my feeling that the Roman Barracks chain would benefit if it was changed from two chains into one.

level 1: "Tax farms": great for exploiting new regions financially, but high rebellion risk (compared to a standard province, I mean "due to culture difference"). Not a lot of recruitment options.
Level 2: "Provincia Praetoriata": still great financially, but reduced rebellion risk. "1st tier" auxiliaries.
Level 3: "Provincia Consularia": reduced financial gain, but even lower rebellion risk. "2nd tier" auxiliaries. Already built in Brindisium at game start.
Level 4: "Socii": low level corruption, normal rebellion risk. Pre-marian: Socii hastati, Socii principes and Socii extraordinarii. Post-Marian "3d tier" auxiliaries.
Level 5: "Peregrini" even more corruption, normal rebellion risk. Only available after Marian reforms, first building in chain that actually needs research! Basic legionary forces and "3d tier" auxiliaries
Level 6: "Civitates" highest level corruption, normal rebellion risk. Needs further research. First cohorts, veteran cohorts, 3d tier auxiliaries.
Each tier in the building chain would cost ever more time and money, of course.

Level 7: "City of Rome". Unique for Rome, already built at game start. Can only build purely Roman units (so no Socii hastati, principes, triarii...), which are capped to a fairly low number...

The basic idea is that Rome can build full Romani legions from the game start instead of just hastati.

However, it quickly hits a recruitment cap; Rome could hardly raise more than 2 full legions of its own civilians. For me, that is 8 units of Hastati, 8 Principes, 8 triarii and 4 equites.
From then on, Rome needs to rely on its subordinate regions to fill its ranks.
Therefore, it has to trade raw financial gain for troop quality: it has to grant ever more civil rights to create higher tier troops and defend its growing empire...
That way, the Roman faction would actually have to rely on its auxiliaries, instead of fielding them for immersion purposes.

I actually used to make a mod myself to play like this (based on an excellent DeI submod that was discontinued some months ago, can't recall its name).
However, since the scripted reforms I have not succeeded in making a viable version... :-(

Just wanted to see how much support I would gain requesting it as an official feature of DeI...

[Ballpoint202]

Lectori Salutem!

With all the great new Roman auxiliary units in 0.9, I wonder how many of you share my feeling that the Roman Barracks chain would benefit if it was changed from two chains into one.

level 1: "Tax farms": great for exploiting new regions financially, but high rebellion risk (compared to a standard province, I mean "due to culture difference"). Not a lot of recruitment options.
Level 2: "Provincia Praetoriata": still great financially, but reduced rebellion risk. "1st tier" auxiliaries.
Level 3: "Provincia Consularia": reduced financial gain, but even lower rebellion risk. "2nd tier" auxiliaries. Already built in Brindisium at game start.
Level 4: "Socii": low level corruption, normal rebellion risk. Pre-marian: Socii hastati, Socii principes and Socii extraordinarii. Post-Marian "3d tier" auxiliaries.
Level 5: "Peregrini" even more corruption, normal rebellion risk. Only available after Marian reforms, first building in chain that actually needs research! Basic legionary forces and "3d tier" auxiliaries
Level 6: "Civitates" highest level corruption, normal rebellion risk. Needs further research. First cohorts, veteran cohorts, 3d tier auxiliaries.
Each tier in the building chain would cost ever more time and money, of course.

Level 7: "City of Rome". Unique for Rome, already built at game start. Can only build purely Roman units (so no Socii hastati, principes, triarii...), which are capped to a fairly low number...

The basic idea is that Rome can build full Romani legions from the game start instead of just hastati.

However, it quickly hits a recruitment cap; Rome could hardly raise more than 2 full legions of its own civilians. For me, that is 8 units of Hastati, 8 Principes, 8 triarii and 4 equites.
From then on, Rome needs to rely on its subordinate regions to fill its ranks.
Therefore, it has to trade raw financial gain for troop quality: it has to grant ever more civil rights to create higher tier troops and defend its growing empire...
That way, the Roman faction would actually have to rely on its auxiliaries, instead of fielding them for immersion purposes.

I actually used to make a mod myself to play like this (based on an excellent DeI submod that was discontinued some months ago, can't recall its name).
However, since the scripted reforms I have not succeeded in making a viable version... :-(

Just wanted to see how much support I would gain requesting it as an official feature of DeI...

What if barracks were eliminated completely as a separate entity (freeing up a building slot) and instead the city building acted as government type and recruitment center? There would be two separate chains, one being a "citizenship" track, the other being a "client ruler" track that can meet at the end. It's a lot like several of the RTW mods like EB and XC.

Concept:

City Buildings will also represent provincial government and military recruitment centers. Barracks will no longer be used (freeing up a building slot).

City population (which determines size of walls, types of roads and size of city on the campaign map) is determined by number of buildings, not by which city building is present.

City/Government/Barracks Buildings 4tpy:

1. Martial Law: 1 turn to build
no garrison
no growth
no cultural effect
big public order bonus
no income
no recruitment
Army in city give public order bonus?
Upgrade to 2a or 2b


2a. Client Ruler: 4 turns to build
excellent garrison
big growth penalty
no cultural effect
public order bonus
big economic penalty
recruit native troops
no factional troops
Army in city give public order penalty?
Upgrade to 3a

2b. Treaty Ally: 40 turns to build
excellent garrison
normal growth
no cultural effect
no public order effect
economic penalty
limited native troops
aucilliary factional troops
Army in city gives public order bonus?
Upgrade to 3

3. Citizenship: 80 turns to build
excellent garrison
good growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
no native troops
all factional troops
Army in city gives public order penalty?
Upgrade to 4

3a. Federated State: 150 turns to build
excellent garrison
normal growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
limited native/auxilliary troops
limited factional troops
Army in city gives public order bonus?
Upgrade to 4

4. Citizenship: 80 turns to build
excellent garrison
good growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
no native troops
all factional troops
Army in city gives public order penalty?

So, factional vs non-factional/auxilliary is based on government type, and you will almost certainly be using both types of governments given the usefulness of client rulers. Also, capital cities will start as type 3 or 4, so you will be able to build all factional units right away in your home province, which is historically accurate I believe.

At start, for example, Rome would be type 3, and all the rest of their cities would be type 2a or 2b.

[Matmannen]

What if barracks were eliminated completely as a separate entity (freeing up a building slot) and instead the city building acted as government type and recruitment center? There would be two separate chains, one being a "citizenship" track, the other being a "client ruler" track that can meet at the end. It's a lot like several of the RTW mods like EB and XC.

Concept:

City Buildings will also represent provincial government and military recruitment centers. Barracks will no longer be used (freeing up a building slot).

City population (which determines size of walls, types of roads and size of city on the campaign map) is determined by number of buildings, not by which city building is present.

City/Government/Barracks Buildings 4tpy:

1. Martial Law: 1 turn to build
no garrison
no growth
no cultural effect
big public order bonus
no income
no recruitment
Army in city give public order bonus?
Upgrade to 2a or 2b


2a. Client Ruler: 4 turns to build
excellent garrison
big growth penalty
no cultural effect
public order bonus
big economic penalty
recruit native troops
no factional troops
Army in city give public order penalty?
Upgrade to 3a

2b. Treaty Ally: 40 turns to build
excellent garrison
normal growth
no cultural effect
no public order effect
economic penalty
limited native troops
aucilliary factional troops
Army in city gives public order bonus?
Upgrade to 3

3. Citizenship: 80 turns to build
excellent garrison
good growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
no native troops
all factional troops
Army in city gives public order penalty?
Upgrade to 4

3a. Federated State: 150 turns to build
excellent garrison
normal growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
limited native/auxilliary troops
limited factional troops
Army in city gives public order bonus?
Upgrade to 4

4. Citizenship: 80 turns to build
excellent garrison
good growth
provides factional culture
public order bonus
no economic effect
no native troops
all factional troops
Army in city gives public order penalty?

So, factional vs non-factional/auxilliary is based on government type, and you will almost certainly be using both types of governments given the usefulness of client rulers. Also, capital cities will start as type 3 or 4, so you will be able to build all factional units right away in your home province, which is historically accurate I believe.

At start, for example, Rome would be type 3, and all the rest of their cities would be type 2a or 2b.

Like this idea very much, needs abit more fleshing out though.

[Don_Diego]

Nice idea, like roma surrectum 2 where you can make colonies and gradually bring provinces into the empire, there could be a single barracks that gives auxiliaries until sufficient Latin culture but I also like to two separate barracks so I can specialise a few regions as centres for legion recruitment. (More realistic IMO, legionaries were never recruited from across the whole empire)

[Belgae]

Nice idea, like roma surrectum 2 where you can make colonies and gradually bring provinces into the empire, there could be a single barracks that gives auxiliaries until sufficient Latin culture but I also like to two separate barracks so I can specialise a few regions as centres for legion recruitment. (More realistic IMO, legionaries were never recruited from across the whole empire)

Well my whole idea is indeed to limit the number of regions you recruit legions from, but allow the player to choose them rather than restricting them to their "historical" regions (e.g. by using legionary AoRs). In my proposed setup, granting civil rights too liberally should drain your imperial finances!.

Moreover, although many legions appear to have been drafted from specific provinces, I am not convinced that all subsequent replacements also came from that province.
I rather like the image drawn in the (excellent) fictional series "Centurion" by Simon Scarrow. There, the distinction between a Legionary and Auxiliary soldier is based on his valour or particular talents (as a rider or archer, for example), rather than his origin.
Although Units refer to their original drafting location ("Second Illyrian!"), the original draftees are gradually replaced by a panoply of cultures uniting under the Roman banner, adapting a single official language and hoping to survive long enough to attain wealth and Roman citizenship. In a way, this unit composition, language policy and soldier aspirations has similarities with the contemporary French "Legion d'Etrangers"...

@Ballpoint: I like your idea of using the government building to replace the barracks. However, I believe it will be hard to balance in the R2TW campaign engine: owning several regions in a province could yield you (and the AI) several, potentially conflicting, "governments".

[Ballpoint202]

. . .
@Ballpoint: I like your idea of using the government building to replace the barracks. However, I believe it will be hard to balance in the R2TW campaign engine: owning several regions in a province would yield you (and the AI) several, potentially conflicting, "governments".

I'm not sure that's a problem. Each city building is different as it is, with different province-wide economic effects and recruiting etc. All I'm really talking about is changing the names of the city buildings and making two different branches, altering the economic and public order effects accordingly, and giving them fuller recruitment rosters. A province with a mix of government types will also have a mix of recruitable units.

The part about tying city-size to the number of buildings may not be moddable, though. I don't know.

edited to add: of course, it may baffle the AI beyond repair.

[Soontir]

The problem is, R2TW treats all building bonuses on provincial lvl so most of those effects would compensate each another. Restricting them to major cities would work for gameplay reasons but would also wreck any immersion left in this game.