Improving Infantry Skills?

[ozyhuboi]

So ever since I began playing Medieval 2, I've mainly worked with cavalry heavy factions like France, Turks, and for Stainless Steel, the Crown of Aragon. I actually find all javelin units unbelievably monstrous in their ability to completely wreck armored units (Algumhvars! Devastators!), but find myself very incapable when it comes to actually using them. I'm so used to using cavalry shock tactics that I find my infantry to be at best a support, at worst a hindrance that slows me down and increases my casualty count. My question is, what are your suggestions for factions and strategies to improve my skills with infantry units and cohesion with my cavalry?

[Andytheplatypus]

Honestly I could explain how to use infantry correctly, but the easiest way to learn infantry tactics are to just watch some youtube videos about Stainless Steel. There are tons of them out there and most will show you how to correctly use your units.

[Grabbin_Megroin]

Honestly I could explain how to use infantry correctly, but the easiest way to learn infantry tactics are to just watch some youtube videos about Stainless Steel. There are tons of them out there and most will show you how to correctly use your units.

Aww, if possible, could you give a tl;dr? My internet is HORRIBLE and youtube videos are nigh-impossible to load. I too share the same sentiment as OP towards javileneers.

[Andytheplatypus]

Here is just a quick set up that I usually do.

1. General Unit
2. Heavy Cav
3. Heavy Cav
4. Spear Unit
5. Spear Unit
6. Spear Unit
7. Spear Unit
8. Spear Unit
9. Spear Unit
10. Spear Unit
11. Archer/Javelin
12. Archer/Javelin
13. Archer/Javelin
14. Archer/Javelin
15. Archer/Javelin
16. Archer/Javelin
17. Heavy Infantry
18. Heavy Infantry
19. Heavy Infantry
20. Heavy Infantry

Put your Spearmen in a straight line. Put Archers/Javelin behind with enough room to fire over their heads. Heavy Infantry behind but on the wings of spearmen. Gen. + Heavy Cav behind everything.

When enemy approaches only target the general or other cav with missile units. Ignore enemy missile for now. When spearmen are hit by other troops begin to flank with your heavy infantry on the wings only, dont move them too far. Now is a good time to bring out your general and other heavy cav around the battle and hit either their general if he is still alive or ideally the back center of their infantry line. When the enemy general is dead and a large portion of their army is fleeing the battle is pretty much over. Mop up with your cav for lots of experience.

[ozyhuboi]

I generally find it unwise to let their cavalry hit your infantry since considerable damage will be done. I usually to distract the enemy cavalry with multiple missle cavalry units, then force them irritated infantry to attack unsupported. Remaining heavy cavalry cleans up Cannae style. The problem is that I find many of my ranged units barely use any of their ammo and heavy infantry still fresh. Image there ways that I can use them more effectively?

[Point Blank]

Here is just a quick set up that I usually do.

1. General Unit
2. Heavy Cav
3. Heavy Cav
4. Spear Unit
5. Spear Unit
6. Spear Unit
7. Spear Unit
8. Spear Unit
9. Spear Unit
10. Spear Unit
11. Archer/Javelin
12. Archer/Javelin
13. Archer/Javelin
14. Archer/Javelin
15. Archer/Javelin
16. Archer/Javelin
17. Heavy Infantry
18. Heavy Infantry
19. Heavy Infantry
20. Heavy Infantry

Put your Spearmen in a straight line. Put Archers/Javelin behind with enough room to fire over their heads. Heavy Infantry behind but on the wings of spearmen. Gen. + Heavy Cav behind everything.

When enemy approaches only target the general or other cav with missile units. Ignore enemy missile for now. When spearmen are hit by other troops begin to flank with your heavy infantry on the wings only, dont move them too far. Now is a good time to bring out your general and other heavy cav around the battle and hit either their general if he is still alive or ideally the back center of their infantry line. When the enemy general is dead and a large portion of their army is fleeing the battle is pretty much over. Mop up with your cav for lots of experience.

That's pretty much my approach too.

[Grabbin_Megroin]

Thanks for the tip Andy! I've always just put my heavy infantry in a straight line with spearmen on the flanks, I'll try your setup next time

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The main problem of the battle AI is that it is programmed to expect a certain behaviour, so if you do not conform to that behaviour, it will get confused. Also it is predictable: if you place spearmen at the front it will send melee units forward, if you place archers or melee units, it will send cavalry etc. It is easy to take the AI for a ride. Here are a couple of examples.

Foot missile units fire much more slowly than cavalry missile units and do not fire when moving. They are fairly useless in most situations, except maybe when attacking from the walls an army that has laid siege to one of your settlements.

[Andytheplatypus]

Foot missile units fire much more slowly than cavalry missile units and do not fire when moving. They are fairly useless in most situations, except maybe when attacking from the walls an army that has laid siege to one of your settlements.

I disagree. I almost always prefer to use foot missile units instead of cavalry. They almost always have: more armor, longer range, and more ammo (also they should have longer range since if you are on foot your bow will be bigger then on horse back, but lets not get into that). Not to mention the ability to have 2 missile types (fire and regular arrows)

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I disagree. I almost always prefer to use foot missile units instead of cavalry. They almost always have: more armor, longer range, and more ammo (also they should have longer range since if you are on foot your bow will be bigger then on horse back, but lets not get into that). Not to mention the ability to have 2 missile types (fire and regular arrows)

If you are playing with longbowmen perhaps or a few other elite units. Horse archers do not need armour anyway, since no one can catch up with them and especially if they have cantabrian circle ability, which foot archers never get. They can also be used as light cavalry, a more useful unit than light infantry. They can at times outflank the enemy general and safely shoot at his back, which foot archers will never manage. Range means nothing when the horse archers can close in and move about while shooting, as the foot archers are running around without shooting. The only use for foot archers is if they can stay somewhere safe behind a wall and stay there long enough to load and shoot at a sensible target, always a difficult equation. If not behind a wall, then you need an army just to protect them from the enemy cavalry, which severely impacts on tactical mobility.

You men go this way...
You men go that way...
Im gonna march around here in a circle.

This is a foolproof infantry tactic

As always, saying not what you mean.

[Andytheplatypus]

If you are playing with longbowmen perhaps or a few other elite units. Horse archers do not need armour anyway, since no one can catch up with them and especially if they have cantabrian circle ability, which foot archers never get. They can also be used as light cavalry, a more useful unit than light infantry. They can at times outflank the enemy general and safely shoot at his back, which foot archers will never manage. Range means nothing when the horse archers can close in and move about while shooting, as the foot archers are running around without shooting. The only use for foot archers is if they can stay somewhere safe behind a wall and stay there long enough to load and shoot at a sensible target, always a difficult equation. If not behind a wall, then you need an army just to protect them from the enemy cavalry, which severely impacts on tactical mobility.

True enough. Depends on your play style and whether you are defending or attacking.

[Deteriorate]

Both are very effective at attacking I've found.. horse archers you can simply set to skirmish with fire at will and you can easily draw off enemy melee cavalry, which makes flanking with infantry a safer move. Foot archers take more management but have greater numbers = more arrows per volley and devastate enemy missile units both foot and mounted when used correctly. Depends on the enemy's army composition

[Point Blank]

Foot missile units fire much more slowly than cavalry missile units and do not fire when moving. They are fairly useless in most situations, except maybe when attacking from the walls an army that has laid siege to one of your settlements.

'Skirmisher' foot missile units fire do more slowly than 'Missileer' foot missile units, which fire as fast as their anims allow and faster than mounted units, eg Longbowmen.

Also note that Skirmisher mounted units must get to within about 80m or less to shoot, and that mounted shooters suffer penalties to range, accuracy and hitting power due to typically lighter bows and arrows than foot missile units. They certainly do not shoot 'several' times as fast as foot missile skirmishers, who conversly have more accuracy, range and hitting power, and they definitely shoot slower than foot missileers with a maximum shooting rate. Horses are also a bigger target and that is taken into account.

But yeah, as said above a lot depends on your playing style and especially how the AI handles its Skirmisher cavalry. Missile cavalry tend to stay at range and rain arrows from a distance, again with less range, accuracy and attack than foot 'missileer' missile units.

Following is a general list of differences between the two types, I think most of these are in 6.4 though couldn't be certain. Some of them are RC2.0 features which should be released soon.

SUMMARY OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SKIRMISH AND MISSILE UNITS
Skirmishers
-------------
Shorter range, shoot directly over open sights
Most accurate of all projectile units
HA Skirmishers close to very short range, ideally just out of javelin range but that is difficult to always control
Melee at ONE quality level less than they shoot at
Have less morale than a melee unit of equivalent quality
Foot Skirmishers have reduced mass because they are less conditioned by training and temperament for any kind of impact situation
Tend to have more open formations
Foot Skirmishers are usually deployed in front of the main battle line
Have 'Skirmish' function switched on
Skirmish HA are usually deployed on the wings
Skirmish HA employ relatively heavy arrows at short range so have +1 damage compared to Missile HA
Skirmish HA typically ride 'HA' mount type category which give +0.1 move_speed_mod, -2 heat, -0.5 mount mass (depicts mares, more responsive and agile but smaller and not trained for melee)
Via animation, mounted Skirmishers tend to back out once engaged in melee
Are more likely to be 'Local' and less likely to be Professionals. As such, they will not only usually have lighter equipment, but equipment of lesser quality as well
Tend to have more 'fragile' mental stats eg Low Discipline, but this is also dependent on their type eg Local, Pro, Feudal or whatever


Missileers
------------
Longer range, arc arrows onto targets to create an 'arrow shower' over a wider area
Maximum shooting rate possible
Less accurate than Skirmishers
Melee at TWO quality levels less than they shoot at
Have less morale than melee and skirmish units of equivalent quality
Foot Missile have further reduced mass because they are less conditioned by training and temperament for any kind of impact situation
Tighter formations than Skirmishers
Foot Missile are usually deployed behind the main battle line
Foot Missile usually have 'Skirmish' function switched off
Missile HA are usually deployed on the wings but closer in than Skirmish HA
Missile HA cannot use as heavy a draw-poundage bow as a foot archer so to reach a similar range must use lighter arrows, and hence have -1 damage compared to Skirmish HA
Missile HA can ride 'HA' mount type category but in practice its variable - some use heavier mounts if they might engage in melee afterwards (eg Mamluk Archers, Khorchi)
Via animation, mounted Missileers tend to back out once engaged in melee
Are more likely to be Professionals and less likely to be Locals etc. Usually have heavier and better quality equipment
Tend to have more 'fragile' mental stats eg Low Discipline, but this is also dependent on their type eg Local, Pro, Feudal or whatever

[Grabbin_Megroin]

Ah, cool, I'll read that sometime later.

Hmm, I wonder how the ai would react if I lined up some cavalry with my infantry, like on top of eachother so that they're mixed together? Really this is just to reduce the devestating effect of the charge bonus, as I'd gladly exchange half a unit of hobilars for 30-40 medium or heavy infantry.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

It should work.

[Duck of Death]

You men go this way...
You men go that way...
Im gonna march around here in a circle.

This is a foolproof infantry tactic

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Foot archers take more management but have greater numbers = more arrows per volley and devastate enemy missile units both foot and mounted when used correctly. Depends on the enemy's army composition

It is an illusion. Mod the EDU to get two units of identical archers of equal size, one on foot, the other mounted. Get them within range of each other and let them shoot at each other with neither moving. The mounted archers will shoot several times as fast and decimate the foot archers. By the time the foot archers fire a volley, the mounted archers have shot off several times as many arrows.

[Andytheplatypus]

It is an illusion. Mod the EDU to get two units of identical archers of equal size, one on foot, the other mounted. Get them within range of each other and let them shoot at each other with neither moving. The mounted archers will shoot several times as fast and decimate the foot archers. By the time the foot archers fire a volley, the mounted archers have shot off several times as many arrows.

Just noticed that they actually do have different animations... Ill have to check it out to see what the differences are.

[Grabbin_Megroin]

It is an illusion. Mod the EDU to get two units of identical archers of equal size, one on foot, the other mounted. Get them within range of each other and let them shoot at each other with neither moving. The mounted archers will shoot several times as fast and decimate the foot archers. By the time the foot archers fire a volley, the mounted archers have shot off several times as many arrows.

Eh, but arrows are generally fairly effective against mounted units, no? Using standard Archer units I can thin out units of medium horse archers pretty quickly. Still, I have yet to encounter heavy horse archers, although by that time I hope to have longbowmen or better.

[Point Blank]

I'm so used to using cavalry shock tactics that I find my infantry to be at best a support, at worst a hindrance that slows me down and increases my casualty count.

And that's in fact how it actually went with much medieval warfare. The infantry were typically quite static and often not considered up to making much of a contribution. This began to change notably in the 1400's with more use of 2H weapons that were effective vs mounted units, and a somewhat greater emphasis on maneuver. However the old ways often remained in many regions and were only really emphatically challenged by for example some of the battles of the Italian Wars in the 1500's where pikes, polearms and firearms gave infantry a much more important role. The addition of effective cannons also allowed a new 'combined arms' approach.