Pikes useless

[The Bringer of Rain]

Was it intended to have pikes to literally nothing? After 1 full hour of fighting my pikeman killed 4 men out of a unit. Four.

[chinchill44]

Well pikes dont kill many troops, but will hold for a long time allowing you to kill the enemy with back strikes.

[zywhite]

I agree. Completely useless pikemans. It wasnt like that in real life

[rjacko10]

Personally I don't think the pikes should be able to hold the line for so long, but be able to kill more men quickly.

They're too extreme.

[TheOrangeProject]

1. Chinchill is right about pikes in matters of DeI.

Pikes intend is not to kill 1000 man while defending a gate, which is why DeI and CA nerfed them (which is totally reasonable).

2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic.

3. About holding lines long=> 3.1 they cant do it that good due to stamina problems, low tier pikes lose stamina faster than hoplites.
3.2 The/Me starts to shoot at pikes which will kill/weaken them significantly.

[The Bringer of Rain]

1. Chinchill is right about pikes in matters of DeI.

Pikes intend is not to kill 1000 man while defending a gate, which is why DeI and CA nerfed them (which is totally reasonable).

2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic.

3. About holding lines long=> 3.1 they cant do it that good due to stamina problems, low tier pikes lose stamina faster than hoplites.
3.2 The/Me starts to shoot at pikes which will kill/weaken them significantly.

They shouldn't wipe out a unit completely, but they should at least be able to get some kills. Are you seriously suggesting no one died when fighting a phalanx head on? That's absurd.

[TheOrangeProject]

They shouldn't wipe out a unit completely, but they should at least be able to get some kills. Are you seriously suggesting no one died when fighting a phalanx head on? That's absurd.

Did i suggest that? I don't think so.

"2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic."

There is no point in complaining about pikes without making any suggestions. "To get some kills" what does that mean? To get some kills against mobs? To get some kills against pretorians? What is some

[The Bringer of Rain]

Did i suggest that? I don't think so.

"2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic."

There is no point in complaining about pikes without making any suggestions. "To get some kills" what does that mean? To get some kills against mobs? To get some kills against pretorians? What is some

You know what I'm talking about. Just another fan boy apparently.... nothing to see from The Orange Project folks just move along

[pyccos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

ya pikes with higher tier units should be deadly now they are not so effective at all, even sword units are killing pikes from the front.

side note: im a fan boy just because im a fan does not mean i blind myself. the term is way over used and improperly to boot

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

1. Chinchill is right about pikes in matters of DeI.

Pikes intend is not to kill 1000 man while defending a gate, which is why DeI and CA nerfed them (which is totally reasonable).

2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic.

3. About holding lines long=> 3.1 they cant do it that good due to stamina problems, low tier pikes lose stamina faster than hoplites.
3.2 The/Me starts to shoot at pikes which will kill/weaken them significantly.

4:55:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiXTevwMzyk
The phalanx was a shock weapon of mass destruction, not just a mere holding tool. If the phalanx had just been for holding then it would not have made any sense for the Successor States to largely neglect their cavalry in favor for even stronger phalanxes. So clearly the phalanx was capable of devestating frontal assaults.

[Gilad]

4:55:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiXTevwMzyk
The phalanx was a shock weapon of mass destruction, not just a mere holding tool. If the phalanx had just been for holding then it would not have made any sense for the Successor States to largely neglect their cavalry in favor for even stronger phalanxes. So clearly the phalanx was capable of devestating frontal assaults.

That's not really a valid source.

[Point Blank]

1. Chinchill is right about pikes in matters of DeI.

2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic.

Maybe you've heard of Alexander the Great? Yes a lot of his battles were won by pikes holding the line while his cavalry flanked and went after the enemy commander, but in general no he did not rely on an attack from the rear on opponents facing his pike line. The peltasts were mostly out of the main battle by this point, being used primarily for initial skirmishing and to break up the enemy attack.

Try telling the Swiss in the 15th/16th century that pikes 'didn't kill'. They steamrolled the opposition with pikes in defense, deliberate marches-to-contact, or short-distance charges with leveled pikes. Witness some of the carnage caused when opposing pike formations met (eg Swiss vs Landsknects such as at Marignano and Pavia) met in combat. And then of course there was the era of Pike and Shot. Yes I know one of the main uses of pikes in that case was to keep enemy cavalry away from the shot, but they were still effective anti-infantry weapons.

Saying pikes don't kill effectively is completely incorrect. And yes historical battles are a valid source.

It is possible to simulate pikes reasonably accurately. In the Real Combat mod for M2TW some of these factors are:
-edit pike animations, and especially limit or even remove pike defensive anims. Slow down left/right turn anims
-allow enough space between pikemen such that enemy infantry (eg swordsmen) can get between the pikes, but not easily
-better-quality pike units have reduced space between pikemen to make it more difficult for swordsmen to get past the pikes
-units with some specialty in fighting pikemen (eg Doppelsoldners, sword-and-buckler) have a slightly reduced radius value so they can slip between the pikes better
-give pikes a very low base defense - if someone can reach the pikeman, he is in trouble. From the side and rear their defense is virtually nil
-give them quite a low attack, since the user is trying to hit an enemy at some distance with a relatively unwieldy weapon. This is made up for by the multiple ranks that can be in contact with the enemy

[Summary]

^ Point Blank Exactly, the fact that pikes and spears existed even in the 18th Century and the gladius didn't is proof enough that the pike was far more useful and effective in battle. Remember the Roman manipular formation won, because they were more flexible as a formation all units (cohorts) didn't need to march side by side and could function independently. Where as in the phalanx army all units should march in cohesion. Not only is this difficult to perform, but also if not performed will end in a certain loss for the phalanx. In a head-on confrontation. Pikes being longer will not allow the legionary to close in and will be taking free hits at the legionary.

@ Smiling Hetairoi I know the balance is out of whack in this mod but please realize that the modders put in hours of unpaid efforts to make it for us the community. Try to be a little respectful of that. I too am affected by this adverse balance, but there is no need to go around calling this mod a joke. It has many good features especially in the CAI.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

^ Point Blank Exactly, the fact that pikes and spears existed even in the 18th Century and the gladius didn't is proof enough that the pike was far more useful and effective in battle. Remember the Roman manipular formation won, because they were more flexible as a formation all units (cohorts) didn't need to march side by side and could function independently. Where as in the phalanx army all units should march in cohesion. Not only is this difficult to perform, but also if not performed will end in a certain loss for the phalanx. In a head-on confrontation. Pikes being longer will not allow the legionary to close in and will be taking free hits at the legionary.

@ Smiling Hetairoi I know the balance is out of whack in this mod but please realize that the modders put in hours of unpaid efforts to make it for us the community. Try to be a little respectful of that. I too am affected by this adverse balance, but there is no need to go around calling this mod a joke. It has many good features especially in the CAI.

Well I do like the campaign and the unit skins. But my opinion still stands.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

1. Chinchill is right about pikes in matters of DeI.

Pikes intend is not to kill 1000 man while defending a gate, which is why DeI and CA nerfed them (which is totally reasonable).

2. Why should pikes kill many? Give us reasons to believe that, than we can actually discuss the topic.

3. About holding lines long=> 3.1 they cant do it that good due to stamina problems, low tier pikes lose stamina faster than hoplites.
3.2 The/Me starts to shoot at pikes which will kill/weaken them significantly.

Stupidest and most unfounded opinion i've read this week...?

Anyone who's read even one historical account of sarisssa pikes against unarmoured or unorganised enemies will bear testament to the destructive capabilities of the 10ft pike. A spear held in two hands without bending is a dangerous weapon, and could kill many an enemy. The difference between R2TW and real life is that an enemy would not try to charge THROUGH those pikes, as it is obvious how quickly they can stop an advancing enemy, when there's 4-5 pikes overlapping each other in defence. In real life the enemy would all-but-halt in front of the pikes and attempt to break up the phalanx formation and move the enemy line onto broken ground. See Polybius and Plutarch on the Third Punic War and the Second Macedonian War, respectively.

[Tundra98]

At first, when the pike nerf came out in 0.8 i think, i thought the same as you, but now that i have analized it i understand their purpose.

Yes, one cant simply put pikes on narrow streets and watch the enemy get steamrolled anymore xD but thats because pikes serve as a different type of unit. They are suposed to hold the enemy in line while you wreck them with backstrikes (e.g. shock cav/inf charges in the rear, peltasts firing at their backs etc). The Phalanx isnt a giant meatgrinder, besides, do you know how difficult is to kill a man, fully armorclad with a shield, with a 4 meters long sarissa? Seems pretty difficult to me xD. Remember that the greek style of warfare isnt about massive attacks, it is more like to engage the enemy in a good defensive formation, tire them out, then finish the up with mobile units (e.g. Royal peltasts or Thorax Swordsmen).

[Blasphemer.]

Pikes are perfect this way. I can get over 500 kills with a single pike unit, just one. I believe you don't know how to use them well...

[The Bringer of Rain]

Pikes are perfect this way. I can get over 500 kills with a single pike unit, just one. I believe you don't know how to use them well...

What a childish thing to say. Post pics or stop lying.

[Gilad]

Pikes were not giant killing machines during this time period if ever. They were the top of the evolution chain in the hammer and anvil strategy that was employed by most Hellenic armies at this time. They were very heavily armored with giant pointy sticks that not only enabled them to hold the enemy at bay from a large distance, but also enabled them to deflect what did make its way through through their heavy armor. They were a very hard to move anvil that was able to hold the enemy in a set place until the hammer was able to come around from behind and force the enemy into either getting run down by spears, swords, projectiles, and/or cavalry or running headlong into a wall of very strong pikes. Either way it was a very effective tactic until nations like Rome and the Parthians adapted by in Rome's case disrupting the pike line by throwing pila before closing the distance so that they could get in the range of their swords and hack the pikemen to pieces or in the case of the Parthians, shower them with non-stop arrows from atop nimble cavalry that psychologically and physically wore the pike units out until they could perform a devastating charge with their heavily armored shock cavalry to rout the exhausted phalanx.

[rjacko10]

Pikes were not giant killing machines during this time period if ever. They were the top of the evolution chain in the hammer and anvil strategy that was employed by most Hellenic armies at this time. They were very heavily armored with giant pointy sticks that not only enabled them to hold the enemy at bay from a large distance, but also enabled them to deflect what did make its way through through their heavy armor. They were a very hard to move anvil that was able to hold the enemy in a set place until the hammer was able to come around from behind and force the enemy into either getting run down by spears, swords, projectiles, and/or cavalry or running headlong into a wall of very strong pikes. Either way it was a very effective tactic until nations like Rome and the Parthians adapted by in Rome's case disrupting the pike line by throwing pila before closing the distance so that they could get in the range of their swords and hack the pikemen to pieces or in the case of the Parthians, shower them with non-stop arrows from atop nimble cavalry that psychologically and physically wore the pike units out until they could perform a devastating charge with their heavily armored shock cavalry to rout the exhausted phalanx.

If this is true then pikes are perfect in DeI. And I will retract my earlier statement.

I like using them. I just didn't think they were realistic.. until reading this paragraph.

However the AI does not know how to use them or beat them [see below]. So due to dodgy AI they can be considered OP. But hey, no one is forcing anyone to use them.

[the AI will run their cav into pikes. they also do not concentrate missiles on pikes. they do not try to flank the pikes. melee units will not disengage an assault on pikes, they will just be held there until your hammer eventually comes]