So about them rear charges

[dowdpride]

So far with the latest versions, this mod is required for me to play Rome 2, I love it that much. The only thing I am a tad bit confused about is the damage of rear charges. I was able to rout around fifteen hundred Illyrian defenders who were engaged with my hoplites by charging them with... drumroll please... twenty five cavalry men. Rear charges should for sure be very effective, but I find the morale shocks for rear attacks perhaps a tad too high.

[rjacko10]

Ah, you see, what happened here wasn't that your 25 cavalry men routed 1500. Instead they routed one, maybe two, units. The other units, seeing their men flee the battle in absolute panic, made them think twice about what they are doing, and caused a chain reaction of panic throughout the whole army.

This is how DeI works. Get one unit to rout, and the rest are much easier.

Of course a lot of other factors play into the routing mechanics.. I bet these 1500 were low tiered units, pretty tired, and were on the losing side anyway.

[Armageddonn]

Ah, you see, what happened here wasn't that your 25 cavalry men routed 1500. Instead they routed one, maybe two, units. The other units, seeing their men flee the battle in absolute panic, made them think twice about what they are doing, and caused a chain reaction of panic throughout the whole army.

This is how DeI works. Get one unit to rout, and the rest are much easier.

Of course a lot of other factors play into the routing mechanics.. I bet these 1500 were low tiered units, pretty tired, and were on the losing side anyway.

That is basically saying that the 25 cavalry man routed everyone....

Anyways to the OP, was the battle going long before your cavalry smashed them or it was the begging of the battle?

[antred]

My guess is that the Illyrians' morale was already close to the tipping point when you delivered that cavalry charge into their backs. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

[dowdpride]

It was about halfway through the battle. They had taken some moderate casualties, as had my militia hoplites who were facing them. It was quite amusing to see the entire force rout when a couple of citizen cav rammed into their backs I think those 34 guys killed almost a thousand men.

[JoeSaunders]

I've ecountered this sort of thing a lot, and as far as I can tell it's not new to this version. I personally don't view it as an inherently problematic feature of the mod, but rather one that can be irritating when you factor in the useless battle AI. Against actual human opponents, who know the importance of covering one's rear (oo er), this aspect of morale isn't so bad, but because the AI is quite content to hover around and ignore cavalry charges more of often than not, battles can become tediously easy. What battle difficulty are you on? 'Cos I often shift mine up one to compensate.

[dowdpride]

I play on normal all around. I dont like it when there are silly bonuses. Had to end that campaign anyways, as I wanted to try something else. Why is it that the selucid city northwest of Antioch is locked to only one building slot anyways?

[Matmannen]

You mean Tarsus? It isn't locked to one building. You just need to make the city grow, get some food going, or do research...

[dowdpride]

There is no expand city button though. All my other ones have one but its greyed out due to lack of population, but Tarsus doesnt even have one. Its like Sparta.

[Tundra98]

i remember once i was sieging the armenians, in a fight which lasted at least 35 minutes(epic fights in DeI ARE a thing). My great phalanxes had engaged the enemy for at least 20 minutes meanwhile my main force of hoplites and swordsmen attacked the center (note, this was on that time that the AI didnt just stack on the center, and instead defended the gates and walls with more than skirmishers, idk if that still happens) but at the last parts of the battle, hey broke and the enemy charged my main force (which was already damaged by the guys protecting the middle) many of my swordsmen were glass cannons, and they engaged them. i would have lost that battle surely......if not by 40 men in a cav unit who backcharged 1 unit of the enemy, which caused a mass rout. Yeah, it isnt the damage, it is the morale penalty what makes them effective

[dowdpride]

I would say the damage is still pretty awesome. I mean, my cav usually gets over six hundred kills a battle.

[Ano2]

I'm going to agree with dowd here, having played a fair few battles now, the rear charge morale drop seems to just be too much. One unit of cavalry is literally deciding entire battles between thousands. I know historically this might be accurate but from a game play perspective it is really not that much fun.

[Summary]

Routing is very contagious. Normally I see the unit with the lowest survivors/highest casualties to gauge their morale. I then charge with the cavalry and they immediately begin to rout. Their nearby allies get a moral debuff from seeing their ally rout. This is when the good old general performs a bellowing battle cry and then, its run for the hills for the enemy. It is funny I have to admit. But in most battles retreats were very common. Armies wouldn't fight it out to the death, and often casualties amount to about only 10-20%. Most of the time the general himself sounds the retreat because he is afraid of losing his entire army by trying to push his luck. Sadly, in Rome 2 an army on the rout meets the same fate, complete and utter annihilation, and even worse your own army suffers less casualties as a result of their rout, making your victory a lot more lop sided.

Routing offered the advantage of survival. I don't think a rout should result in a cavalry of 25 units to kill over a thousand men. Besides in the game you can chase a thousand men to the end of the map far away from your main army. In reality they would just realize you over extended, turn around and gang rape your cavalrymen who are now isolated from the main group.

[ABH2]

I don't see the main complaint here. You were fighting low quality infantry that had taken casualties. Most units did route when hit from behind. Because no one fighting wants to be surrounded. And cavalry is a little disrespected. Alexander's companions weren't that large, but their charge scattered the Persians as soon as they saw their king flee (or the other way around). By many estimates there were 35k Persian cavalry at Gaugamela. Despite being outnumbered 2:1, at Cannae Hannibal surrounded the tightly packed Romans and it was game over.

Crazy high morale even when flanked doesn't make battles fun to me in game. It just means I'm sitting there watching little animations play out. Maybe I'm cycling my cavalry into the battle. DeI allows for actual maneuvers (IE flanking and other such tactics). That's the point, as I see it, of making battles last longer.

[gornoviceanu]

I second the others, I love these kind of things about this mod. And like others have said, if you're part of the middle force and watch the guys from your left run away in despair and you're a drafted farmer with a spear and shield you'd think about what's more important and gtfo out of there

[Nochyan]

Hm, the OP is raising a valid point here, managed to hold a settlement thanks to my peasants charging the back of the enemies.

Maybe the value of the units should also be considered, say something like 1 - 2 ratio, meaning the flanking unit should get a bonus to threat, but not overly exaggerated.

[TheOrangeProject]

Hm, the OP is raising a valid point here, managed to hold a settlement thanks to my peasants charging the back of the enemies.

Maybe the value of the units should also be considered, say something like 1 - 2 ratio, meaning the flanking unit should get a bonus to threat, but not overly exaggerated.

What diff you playing on?

I play on vh or legend and sometimes it is extremly hard to get enemys to rout, with mobs it is practically impossible (never saw it happen lately).

[rjacko10]

From what I understand, the morale debuff from being "attacked in the rear" is the same whether a unit is being attacked by 25 men, 250 men or just 2 men.

For example, if an AI unit spreads out and one or two men manage to get around the side of one of my units, the "attacked in flank" warning will display, and the morale will drop from green to yellow. However after a quick readjustment of formation so that none of the enemy men are wrapping around my unit, suddenly the morale goes up to green, and they're as happy as larry again.

However it should be noted there other morale debuffs associated with being attacked in the rear, such as casualty shock, and losing decisively - which won't triggered by fewer men.

[dowdpride]

I am not suggesting that the charge from the rear not give a large morale loss, far from it, I just think that it needs to be slightly adjusted. I mean, these Illyrians are defending their homeland and their final settlement against a bitter enemy, and yet routed with such a large amount of men left, from a combat that was dead even (and probably in their favour)

[TheOrangeProject]

That's is actually something that bothers me too.

If i recall correctly (99% sure about this) routing units in some games - i think it was R1 and Med2 - would flee to the main siege point and regroup and fight to the death. I dont think it has to be something this extreme, but the mass fleeing while defending homelands is (sometimes) strange.