slingers and javelins are now completly useless

[Jepp]

Hello,

I recently started playing with this mod. But now i see my slingers and javelin men cant do any damage. They cant do any damage to the units who have shields. Not even 1!!! Isnt the use of slingers underpowerd now. In the roman times the use of slingers had deadly consequences. They could even penetrate certain shields...

[Avetis]

You can easily do some changes by yourself:

1. Open DEI .pack file with PFM
2. Go to db->projectiles_tables->DEI_projectiles table
3. Sort it by category column so you be able to see sequences of jevelins and sling projectiles
4. Scroll this table little bit right to see demage column
5. Change values

[Jepp]

ty very much will try that

[luck_ponte]

Also, bear in mind that from hard difficulty onwards the AI get more and more bonuses in battle, which includes defense. Also, how are you using your skirmishers? As it is, slingers are the single best anti-missile units in the game, capable of trouncing low armoured enemies with high precision, range and reload rate. Javelinmen can be a pain when used right, specially against phalanxes. And then you have archers, wich are flexible and a really great asset in sieges due to their fire arc and different ammo types. With that in mind, also note that the shot angle influences a LOT. If you shoot upfront even cheap levies will withstand a heavy barrage of missiles without a scratch. However, shooting their right flank or their rear, if you can do so, is devastating. Javelins are especially good for that kind of manouver, since they will land a hard punch (high damage and AP), are fast and are cheap (so it won't hurt you much if they're caught), but slingers and archers will be equally deadly. My missile troops have won me many battles, it's just the way you use them. Hope it helps ;D

[Avetis]

--my mistake--

[ABH2]

I honestly think missile troops are overpowered. If you just use them to attack from the front, yea. But it's ridiculously easy to just put them behind the AI and hit them from behind. I promise you won't be complaining they are too weak when you see the kills they rack up that way. It's not unrealistic as much as its a result of poor AI that's incapable of protecting its flanks and rear. Even from the front, though, javelins tear apart phalanxes and hoplites. All infantry, really, take heavy damage from javelins.

[Menulo]

would you not hide behind your shield if you are under attack form slingers? ofc you would.

try hitting them when they are in combat and you will hit them, and kill them. fighting another unit while the back rows hide behind shields is not something people did according to CA

[gdwitt]

It's hard to flank the AI unless you outnumber them or they lack horses. Slingers and javs also do not function in towns due to their low trajectory.
My mod here that you can look up under "The javelins peltast" gives hellenic javs the ability to throw at a medium and high trajectory over buildings.
There is also a special ability to throw long "ankyle" shots for peltasts and 1 javelin-type.
The mod doesn't boost them much in the field, but they are extra useful in naval and city combat.
I recently upgraded the mod to include optional deployable defenses around town defenses (when general present).
The biggest change from DEI is that these hellenic jav units have more javelins to throw but they cause less damage.
Let me know what you think.

[Fozzie]

I don't find it especially difficult to outflank an enemy with missile troops. Maybe by themselves. When I advance my line, I usually use high defense heavy infantry (~7 units plus General) in the front to lock the bulk of their forces in combat. I keep four units of quicker melee troops just behind that main line (2 to each flank). When the heavy infantry are engaged, I quickly move these units outward to each flank of the enemy, without engaging, and using them to screen my missile troops (4-5) from any attracted enemy forces, which is usually cavalry if any. The missile troops (typically slingers or archers for the additional range, but javelins work too) are used to pelt the backs of their line's flank troops. If I feel like my missile troops are safe from attack, I'll send in my reserve fast melee troops to attack from the sides. It goes without saying you want to avoid using your missile troops on the same units the flanking melee troops are attacking. The remaining 3-4 spots I have in my army usually go to light cavalry with a decent charge. I usually keep them together, move them around the backside of the enemy while their line is occupied and attack their missile troops. When their missile troops are routing, I use them to charge straight into the rear center of their line. I haven't lost a battle using these tactics.

This method relies greatly on the ability of the heavy infantry to hold the line while you're outmaneuvering the enemy, so it's important to choose the highest defense unit you can. You also want to execute these maneuvers together in order to end the battle as quickly as possible. Not only will you save more of your men, but you'll also give the enemy much less of a chance of forming a response.

Here's a picture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I wish I had made it a little wider, but you get the idea. I usually swing out a little wider than this shows.

Hope this helps.

Edit: I agree that missile troops are less efficient in town attack situations. I usually only use archers in these scenarios, and in a very limited capacity.

[Velico]

Skirmishing takes a lot of practice to become effective at. I generally open with slingers, two up front with cavalry on their flanks, and 3-4 javelins behind that line. Use the slingers to whittle down their skirmish units, and don't waste it on anything else. They're not effective against armor, nor should they be. Once the enemy skirmish units withdraw or are negligible, bring up the javelins. Keep in mind skirmishers are not for racking up kills. They are meant to screen your forces and cause disorder in enemy ranks. Target their most heavily armored units, and pelt them a couple times, hoping those units take the bait and run after your javelinmen. If they do, excellent! Hit them with the slingers while their flanks are showing, and engage with an infantry unit then slam into the rear with cavalry. Reorganize your men, and continue barraging units with javelins until they have depleted ammo. Once you meet lines, pressure the units you hit the hardest with javelins with your best troops. Win the cavalry engagement, and use those cavalry to hit the weakened units from the javelins. Once you break that unit, the rest of the line usually rolls up. Skirmishing 101.

You should focus on using your ammo before the main lines meet. This will reduce the chance of friendly fire, and lessen the risk of casualties from risky maneuvers with skirmishers to the flanks/rear. Errant javelins kill friendly soldiers, use cavalry for those types of attacks. Weaken the enemy, engage them, and smash them with your cavalry.

Slings rarely did anything to armored units. Helmet shots could be debilitating, but usually they would bounce off the large shields that were so common in this era. Even a helmet shot was rare to kill, it is concussive force so the most it would do is disorient the person hit and probably give an instant headache with ringing in the ears.

I am speaking primarily from my research on ancient warfare between Rome and the Germanic tribes that I conducted for my thesis in college.

[gornoviceanu]

Try placing your line right in front of a hill or near the end of the slope and your missile units behind. They angle will allow them to wreak havoc.

[TheOrangeProject]

Slingers are not useless ~~

It is not all about killing enemies. Every unit got health and with every shot that hits, the unit loses health. (With the blood and gore dlc you can clearly see the blood after slinger hits.) Less health=more causalities in close combat.

[Maxmoaz]

Slingers are not useless ~~

It is not all about killing enemies. Every unit got health and with every shot that hits, the unit loses health. (With the blood and gore dlc you can clearly see the blood after slinger hits.) Less health=more causalities in close combat.

I never thought of it this way, thank you for this.

[antred]

Skirmishers aren't even remotely useless! Sure, the first few volleys from a unit of slingers won't cause a lot of a kills, but once you've put say 4 or 5 volleys into the enemy unit, the casualties start racking up, and increasingly faster at that.

[FlashHeart07]

And to add to antred' post javelin men are also not useless in city defenses. The ai mostly start out with placing their ladders at the wall and having a couple of javelin men pelt them as they advance can really help and take out quite a few enemies before they even reach the walls. And they are also able to hit the enemy from the ground when they enemy troops has landed on your walls. same goes for slingers.

[Anonymous_Jones]

Javelinmen on the flanks of pitched battles have been instrumental in more victories than one as far as my experience goes.

[Xubarku]

Archers and slingers will get like 3 to 4 as many kills if attacking from the flanks/rear, so yes, flanking with missile troops is important. It's especially useful when you consider the barrage will last basically the whole fight. While archers should probably form the core of your skirmishers, try holding one or two javelin units in reserve behind the main line.

Javelins don't really care about positioning. They're -nearly- as effective from the front, with no need for the risk or time taken to maneuver. Wait for the lines to clash, have a javelin unit attack the most elite unit the enemy has, preferably general. Your 70 upkeep javelin unit will utterly wreck that unit, possibly killing the general, and likely removing one of your biggest threats. Of course, they're damn near worthless without ammo, and will probably die even flanking any decent troop in melee. Using javelin cav instead (similarly cheap) lets you attack enemy skirmishers and routing enemies, allowing your real cavalry to do more important things.

Javelin troops are NOT useless, they're just a lot less general purpose than other missile troops. You'll have to turn off fire at will and prioritize their targets, but if you do, it's very worthwhile to have one or two in every army. It requires a bit more planning, but having multiple types of skirmishers in your army really opens up some options in how you react. I'm also wondering how a volley of javelins against anything but elephants could fail to get a single kill. :p