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Thread: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

  1. #1381
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Eastern Europe was poor and far away in the MA. The poorests were the Baltics, Scandinavia and Poland (not to mention the steppes, ofc). Russia could have been a bit better off at some places but it was sparsly populated. Getting resources in this situation was very problematic - and this is reflected by corruption.

    Chivalry - yes, you're right, I've got the same feelings. I will mod and balance the points for StrategyChivalry and BattleChivalry (as I'm doing it with the economic traits). Thanks for feedback, it's exactly what I need.
    Besides: sacking and exterminating is a problem and will stay like this. If you exterminated, you won't have high chivalry that attracts new citizens. It's a trade-off.
    The Muslim world was the most populous and urbanised in the Middle Ages - but the changes were small in this period (urbanisation moved from 6 to 9%), while in Western Europe it jumped from 1% to 12% (or so, iirc). So the upgrades should be much lower compared to the Western and Eastern Europe.

    Controlling lands on the outskirts should indeed incurr costs, imo. It's historical and it made some factions simply not trying to expand (think of Byzantium - they extended domination over parts of Armenia (in broad sense) at times, but it was not possible to control it). Painting the map is not something I'd like to see in SSHIP (even though Alavaria painted the whole map in 199 turns with Pisa in SSHIP 092).

    I'd love to have more events with the effects you've described in the SSHIP. If you can help us - you'd be warmly welcome.

  2. #1382
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Russian settlements should have their incomes mostly based on trade rather than on resources (except furs for the Northern settlements)
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  3. #1383

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Painting the map is not something I'd like to see in SSHIP (even though Alavaria painted the whole map in 199 turns with Pisa in SSHIP 092).
    This is a something I've seen you say a few times Jurand, and while I understand your sentiment there, I think it is also important that you not have that be an overriding consideration when you're balancing and reworking things. Obviously, the ease with which one can steamroll things in the vanilla game (and some mods) is against the spirit of a historically-minded mod like SSHIP, but it should still be possible for a player to take over the whole world. Yes, it will be difficult, especially with far away settlements, or ones that are unruly with conquerors (capitals and whatnot), but I think it is important for the mod that it still be within the realm of possibility for a player to paint the whole map. Definitely not easy, and not necessarily even likely, but a good player who is avoiding exploits should be capable of building his way toward a Eurasian empire (probably playing for 500+ turns, if not more).

    I guess my main point is just to ask you to avoid adding *too* many hurdles to expansion, as at some point it will make the mod more trouble than it's worth for a lot of players. And to be clear, this is not a critique of anything you've done up to this point. You're making this thing better by the day! It is only to make sure you keep the thought in the back of your head that while it can't be easy to paint the map, good players should still be able to do it somehow.
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  4. #1384

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yep, I'll have a look at the points (actually one trigger is enough) but I'm quite convinced about making changes I've desribed. It's been long in the plans.
    And what about correcting dependance of taxation on population to the logical level? Plus it would be enough to decide the problem of highly-populated large settlements in the problematic regions to the point, that merchant could be removed from the game, and I would not care.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    with 18 settlements it's already a statistics and it's quite useful.
    Considering my proof of clear relation between taxes and population, of course, although it can still be up to 20%-25% wrong, because it does not contain information, which of your settlements are castles, and which are cities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Russian settlements should have their incomes mostly based on trade rather than on resources (except furs for the Northern settlements)
    Mostly on trade, particularly Novgorod, Kiev, and settlements at Dnieper, but the fact, that southern part of Eastern European plain, especially Eastern Ukraine is one of the most fertile regions in the world and the most in Europe, should not be forgotten, not in vain German nazis stole the soil and exported it in Germany from there in WW2. So harvest must be excellent. There also was iron production in many regions. Eventually what prevents the player from developing Bulghar and Aktobe, building mines and starting to extract metals in Ural (a lot of everything there is)?

  5. #1385
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    It is only to make sure you keep the thought in the back of your head that while it can't be easy to paint the map, good players should still be able to do it somehow.
    They will unless we'd include unforeseen mechanisms as it was in the case of Titanium ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by TWM2MP View Post
    And what about correcting dependance of taxation on population to the logical level? Plus it would be enough to decide the problem of highly-populated large settlements in the problematic regions to the point, that merchant could be removed from the game, and I would not care.
    There's always a question what does it mean "logical level" ;-) But we'll try to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TWM2MP View Post
    Mostly on trade, particularly Novgorod, Kiev, and settlements at Dnieper, but the fact, that southern part of Eastern European plain, especially Eastern Ukraine is one of the most fertile regions in the world and the most in Europe, should not be forgotten, not in vain German nazis stole the soil and exported it in Germany from there in WW2. So harvest must be excellent. There also was iron production in many regions. Eventually what prevents the player from developing Bulghar and Aktobe, building mines and starting to extract metals in Ural (a lot of everything there is)?
    it was possible only in 19-20th century (starting in 16th when Ruthenian-Lithuanian-Polish nobles set up their estates). Before that the proper technology and socio-political infrastructure were lacking for both efficient agriculture and good mining to be possible. In the Middle Ages Southern Ukraine were just steppes, fit only for nomadic shepherding, as it was for millenia.
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  6. #1386
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by TWM2MP View Post
    Mostly on trade, particularly Novgorod, Kiev, and settlements at Dnieper, but the fact, that southern part of Eastern European plain, especially Eastern Ukraine is one of the most fertile regions in the world and the most in Europe, should not be forgotten, not in vain German nazis stole the soil and exported it in Germany from there in WW2. So harvest must be excellent. There also was iron production in many regions. Eventually what prevents the player from developing Bulghar and Aktobe, building mines and starting to extract metals in Ural (a lot of everything there is)?
    What JoC said
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  7. #1387

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Controlling lands on the outskirts should indeed incurr costs, imo. It's historical and it made some factions simply not trying to expand (think of Byzantium - they extended domination over parts of Armenia (in broad sense) at times, but it was not possible to control it). Painting the map is not something I'd like to see in SSHIP (even though Alavaria painted the whole map in 199 turns with Pisa in SSHIP 092)
    I wholeheartedly agree with you, Painting the map shouldn't be something easily done, but it has been done by various Empires. I appreciate that adding mechanics/events that resemble real-life obstacles can be very difficult to code in a fairly simplistic 2006 game; but in my opinion, replacing them with mechanics that make it impossible to expand beyond certain limits isn't a good option.

  8. #1388
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    ^^ True but the mod is still in progress. We implement, we adjust and we remove or replace if necessary
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  9. #1389

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Hi and thank you for the wonderful work on this mod!

    I have some difficulties with understanding the exact workings of the treasury. I figured out that due to engine limitations the financial report is incomplete and that there are various unwritten modifiers at work such as being at war or not. However, it's hard to predict how these various conditions will translate into exact numbers regarding money. It's a bit daunting having a predicted profit one turn and finding that I'm in the the next.

    Is there anywhere I could read up on how precisely the economy works? Most guides here are about national strategies or settlement management.

    I'm not a *complete* idiot and have some experience with paradox games and most of the total wars games, but this has me scratcing my head a little.

  10. #1390
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Kessar View Post
    Hi and thank you for the wonderful work on this mod!

    I have some difficulties with understanding the exact workings of the treasury. I figured out that due to engine limitations the financial report is incomplete and that there are various unwritten modifiers at work such as being at war or not. However, it's hard to predict how these various conditions will translate into exact numbers regarding money. It's a bit daunting having a predicted profit one turn and finding that I'm in the the next.

    Is there anywhere I could read up on how precisely the economy works? Most guides here are about national strategies or settlement management.

    I'm not a *complete* idiot and have some experience with paradox games and most of the total wars games, but this has me scratcing my head a little.
    Hi Kessar,
    in this mod the financial report is more-or-less complete (it was a different story with the Byg's Grim Reality). I'm not aware on the unwritten modifiers. If you're at war with another faction then the trade is stopped - but you'll see it in the report.

    The only issue I can think of is the costs of besieging (1000) - they may be omitted from the financial panel in the predictions of expenses.

    On the mechanics of economy in the Medieval II you may read here (take into account that the EBII team modified a lot, so in the SSHIP it's going to be different - but the hardcoded mechanics stays.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 27, 2020 at 11:38 AM.

  11. #1391

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Ah that was it! I was declaring war and besieging two settlements in Scotland and thought that the money was going into some sort of heightened war tax rather than the sieges themselves.

    Thanks a lot Jurand!

  12. #1392
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Kessar View Post
    Ah that was it! I was declaring war and besieging two settlements in Scotland and thought that the money was going into some sort of heightened war tax rather than the sieges themselves.

    Thanks a lot Jurand!
    Good you're asking, I'll add an information window about this.
    It is actually 1000 fl per general, so it may costs you a lot if there're more guys sieging. You may see it in their traits.

    I actually wonder how historical was the control of Scotland by England at that time. Conquering yes, but an effective control was possible only in 18th century...
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 28, 2020 at 06:59 AM.

  13. #1393
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    I guess it would have been quite difficult for England to control Scotland, even during the 12th and 13th centuries. The events that took place at the end of the 13th century (Wallace and Robert the Bruce) are just an example of what could have happened earlier if England had conquered Scotland before IMO.
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  14. #1394

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Hello everyone, we've been playing this submod hotseat with our friends for more than 1 year, but I've found a lot of bugs about this latest release, just showing up to fix it to the developers.
    Ruthenian Archers, owned by Kievan Rus, Lithuanians, Novgorod and Poland, appear as silver soldiers on the battlefield (And some units like this)
    Miles pedites does not have an information picture of rebel units and a unit card picture there's a man with a knife in his hand
    I forgot which state but on the battlefield the captain of the unit appears as silver

  15. #1395

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    I get a "Hero of Scotland" feature in some generals in campaigns where I play with other countries that have nothing to do with Scotland (I last got it with Kievan Rus)

  16. #1396
    kostic's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    I also spotted this unit "Ruthenian archers" and I intend to correct it with the release of my sub-mod. If you give me the list of silver units I will take care of it with KCC while waiting for an SSHIP version to take care of it.

  17. #1397
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Sadly I already deleted my save, its time for a new playthrough. Turn 333 really isn't that far, my friend is currently having a crash on turn 570, his log doesn't say anything at all, but he is still using 0.92. I always play on VH/VH difficulty, long campaign. I made a few minor tweaks, like halving the movement range of all armies and agents, I know its not realistic in terms of 1 turn equals 6 months, but makes roads, planning, generals with high movement range and cavalry more important gameplay wise. I also always play with my "home rules", like never reloading (unless its a crash ofc), even if a terrible disaster, war, excommunication etc happens, kind of like ironman. Try to expand in a historic way (as much as its actually possible). If playing as catholic I can only occupy other catholic settlements (release captured soldiers), sack orthodox settlements (demand ransom) and can only exterminate pagans/muslims (kill off all their armies). Just try to only occupy Italian cities I dare you, it will give you headaches for years . I avoid capturing capitals for as long as possible. I also give lots of monetary gifts to my allies, and if playing a catholic I like to have high standing with the pope, that way I can control where the crusades are heading and also get decent amount of cardinals. In terms of balancing I have to say that in all my sship playthroughs ( roughly 30 of them), the Byzantines are always OP, they conquer all of balkans, south and central rus, asia minor, middle east. Rum sultanate gets wiped out early and never recovers, Serbia, Hungary and Kievans don't stand much chance against them either. Moors are very powerful at the beginning, but can be dealt with spamming crusades on Iberia. Catholic Iberians don't stand a chance against them, neither does France. Mongols are fierce at their arrival, but loose their momentum once they reach Caucasus (and conquered factions start to respawn). Other factions seem pretty balanced to me, it kind of depends from one playthrough to the other. I love the new traits for generals, can't say I had any problems with them, except that faltering courage one, being too common, but that one was fixed. I'm also in favor of reducing the number of merchants, not their profitability. Would love to see permanent forts on the map, currently I enable non-permanent ones to be built like watchtowers. Heard a lot how AI can't really handle forts well, but I disagree, the AI can't handle their own cities well and its the same with forts . In current campaign the pope built himself a fort in the north on the border with Firenze, in the east, on the border of Ancona, and in the south, on the border of Naples. The Moor conquered Toulouse and placed a fort on the border of Arles. I would say AI places forts really smart, and they also help against blitzkrieg expansion. Ah just a small thing I noticed is hospitalers have silver banners, units are ok, its just their banners. Have a nice day guys

  18. #1398
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Prugalo View Post
    I also always play with my "home rules", like never reloading (unless its a crash ofc), even if a terrible disaster, war, excommunication etc happens, kind of like ironman. Try to expand in a historic way (as much as its actually possible). If playing as catholic I can only occupy other catholic settlements (release captured soldiers), sack orthodox settlements (demand ransom) and can only exterminate pagans/muslims (kill off all their armies).
    Maybe you can put your thoughts on this and compare it to my home rules on this page?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prugalo View Post
    I love the new traits for generals, can't say I had any problems with them, except that faltering courage one, being too common, but that one was fixed. I'm also in favor of reducing the number of merchants, not their profitability. Would love to see permanent forts on the map, currently I enable non-permanent ones to be built like watchtowers. Heard a lot how AI can't really handle forts well, but I disagree, the AI can't handle their own cities well and its the same with forts . In current campaign the pope built himself a fort in the north on the border with Firenze, in the east, on the border of Ancona, and in the south, on the border of Naples. The Moor conquered Toulouse and placed a fort on the border of Arles. I would say AI places forts really smart, and they also help against blitzkrieg expansion.
    Merchants - I'm also in favour of reducing the number of merchants, not their profitability
    Byzantines - what about the jihads? there should be recurrent on Constantinople. This should prevent Byzzies from expanding.
    Forts - I think your way is ok, but in generals I'm very sceptical, see entry in my sig.
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project,
    and the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine.
    ........................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Pros and cons of having merchants in an M2TW mod. Arguments against the forts in M2TW.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. No good mod yet, alas!
    Dominant strategy in Rome 2 TW and Attila TW: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
    .................................................................................................................................................................................
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  19. #1399

    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Been having huge problems with logging in this past week, even after changing password 3 times. So I decided to create a new account, had some issues logging in here as well. But nevermind. Jurand you're spot on, on the forts, don't have anything to add there. Considering jihads on Constantinople, they barely happen, if at all. Most jihads go for Tunis, Jerusalem and than later against Mongols, usually in Mesopotamia.

  20. #1400
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Waluk View Post
    Been having huge problems with logging in this past week, even after changing password 3 times. So I decided to create a new account, had some issues logging in here as well. But nevermind. Jurand you're spot on, on the forts, don't have anything to add there. Considering jihads on Constantinople, they barely happen, if at all. Most jihads go for Tunis, Jerusalem and than later against Mongols, usually in Mesopotamia.
    On one hand, this might be very historical. On the other, it opens the world to Byzantines, what is less historical.
    I think we need to nerf the Byzzantines, while keeping low-probability of jihads.
    But it'd interesting to see how many players also noticed that there're few jihads on the Polis?

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