[DOWNLOAD] SSHIP ver. 0.97 (outdated, use v. 098)

[Kilo11]

Guys, here is the recent patch.

Changelog:
- Teenager trait fixed,
- traits Sane, Insane, Deranged, Hypochondriac fixed for bugs.
- Intelligent - re-made: new names, new effects (less direct, but more in the triggers), triggers at CoA.
- trait Generous & Miserly - fixed NGB bug, trigger changed etc.
- Upright, Corrupt, Embezzler - further refined, but some re-counting perhaps still needed.
- Miner, Farmer traits completely redone (added levels, added information, benefits changed etc.)
- the SSHIP buildings start to appear in the triggers for various traits (in all 3 relevant impacts: on the governor when built, on the governor when he governs the settlement, factionwide on the new generals when they CoA.)

So, would you say it's good to play with this patch then? Are these the changes you were telling me to wait for in the Bugs thread? I only ask because I am really excited to start a new campaign with all the changes, and want to make sure I don't get myself excited too early!

[Lifthrasir]

Just a quick question JoC: have you included the correction fix for Novgorod made by Lurker from Codex?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Just a quick question JoC: have you included the correction fix for Novgorod made by Lurker from Codex?

No, not at all. I think the Rus requires indeed a revamp along the lines of thoughts of Lurex and Alexandro, but it should be thorough and well-thought-out. We need to think how the Usurper trait would play - after the 1132 there're many usurpers and Rus got ever more fragmented.

So, would you say it's good to play with this patch then? Are these the changes you were telling me to wait for in the Bugs thread? I only ask because I am really excited to start a new campaign with all the changes, and want to make sure I don't get myself excited too early!

Not yet all of them. This patch was mainly to fix Teenager and Intelligent. I still have a few economic traits to finish.

[Lifthrasir]

Noted and agree. Thanks JoC

[TWM2MP]

My current plan is as follows:
"The merchants are not numerous in the SSHIP. In the early game you're likely to have just 1 or 2, and only a few more later. You may recruit merchants from:
* a Market in the initial capital of your faction and any other faction capital you'd conquer;
* a Warehouses in certain Large Cities on the Apennine peninsula;
* a Docklands in any Huge City;
* a Merchant Guild;
* a Adventurers' Guilds after the First Rudder is invented (historical event);
* a Hanseatic Guild after the cooperation between Lubeck and Cologne starts (historical event)."

I am certainly against limiting merchants quantity and nerfing them this way. They might give too much to Novgorod (Although I do not have all information about Lurker's faction, so I cannot know, why merchant trade makes more money for him than all other sources combined. I see that much for the first time too. May be he has city managament troubles.), but they are neccessary for balancing expenses of factions in high-populated regions. Particularly in the Middle East, Iran and Northern Africa, where coincidentally the most profitable (for any faction) trade resources are. Considering public order problems in SSHIP for the populated settlements and for the aforementioned regions, moreover 50% distance penalty to public order in a province being 2-3 regions from the capital, you have to keep many units in garrison. Especially in hotseat campaigns, where spies are actively used, for example you have to keep 20 good professional units ALONG WITH A VERY GOOD GENERAL (who can also be easily assassinated after decades of training) in low taxed and controlled by an islamic faction Bagdad and pay for their mantainance, which is far bigger than income of even such a city like Bagdad. And there forfeiting high merchant income would completely ruin these factions. Actually it is rather about regions than factions, and Lurker would feel it, if he expanded to the South not the West.
Binding merchants recruitment to warehouses, docklands, and adventurers' guilds is dumb. Trade rights and high demand resources have their sense to be as well. IMHO the most optimal variant is to make taxation depend on the population number, because at first it is realistical, secondly it would compensate garrison expenses for problematic regions, then to nerf merchant profits from trade resources or trade resources. In case it is not possible in this game, another solution (still dumb but less) is to further higher the market building level required to recruit merchants.
And yes, Lurker is right about merchants' skill level going beyond 10. I noticed that in SSHIP 0.9.2 (did not play before that version).

Merchants - it's surprising given that they're not changed since 092, and a that time (5 years ago) we didn't see such a huge issue.

I do not know wether you fixed this in 0.9.6 or not. I remember, in SSHIP 0.9.2 AI disbanded its 2 full stack armies in the next turn after emerging, due to the lack of funds for their upkeep, I guess, which completely destroyed re-emerging factions mechanics of this mod. Re-emerging factions should also receive a lot of gold, or there is the different fixing method, if the cause for doing so is not lack of money.


P. S. Stop making patches! I am organizing the hotseat campaign in SSHIP, but you constantly update it.

[Jurand of Cracow]

There's been a long discussion and a vote on what to do with the merchants. And the numbers shown by @Lurker are stunning. I don't think we can make with so many merchants.

"Binding merchants recruitment to warehouses, docklands, and adventurers' guilds is dumb. Trade rights and high demand resources have their sense to be as well." - Trade rights and high demand resources impact (will keep on impacting) on the profitability of the merchants.

"the most optimal variant is to make taxation depend on the population number" - the main determinant of the taxation income is the population number. It's the reason why you want to have highly-populated cities.

Indeed, Baghdad requires a lot of soldiers as a garrison. It's because of the number of inhabitants. I find it very historical. It was difficult even for a caliph to keep the city under control.

Your remark about disbanding the armies by a re-emerging faction is very interesting. If there'd more reports on this issue then one may indeed add money. However, it might be of no help - I think the team in EBII stumbled also on this issue.

I may stop making patches but then you'll stuck with bugs and un-finished features ;-)

[Kilo11]

I may stop making patches but then you'll stuck with bugs and un-finished features ;-)

Jurand, you keep making your patches! They are of great help, and if someone wants to start a hotseat campaign, your patches don't prevent that in the least. TWM2MP, just get everyone you're hotseating with to get to the same patch, and then not patch past that. It's a simple solution, and it allows the mod to keep being developed in the meantime.

[Lifthrasir]

The issue with the disbanding re-emergent armies is due to the mercenaries disband one. No money and your mercenaries disband. I guess that it works the same way for spawing armies as the game consider them as mercenaries. As said by JoC, I don't think it can be changed unfortunately unless a certain amount of money is also given. But it doesn't mean that it would work in any case.

[kostic]

P. S. Stop making patches! I am organizing the hotseat campaign in SSHIP, but you constantly update it.

I like the Jurand of Cracow patches and don't want it to stop. Nothing prevents the player to choose the game at a given time and to ignore patch for several weeks if he wishes!
In the meantime, the player who is blocked in his campaign by a bug is discouraged if he does not get a fix and therefore cannot test his campaign until the end, which is very bad for SSHIP ...

[Nemesis2345]

Im pro with merchants nerf as well , in my HRE campaign of 350+ turns, i was making around 60k as well only from them . A 10 finance merchant on a gold mine can easy go for 10k florins without trouble , and as HRE i had acces to serbia's and hungary's gold resource , then Italy was really moneymaker for half the game , every resource between Genova , Pisa and Venice go for 400+ for a 3 finance merchant , when they all get 8-10 finance they make so much money.

Also , yeah, JoC's patches confused me as well since they kept coming , but you cant complain rly , they are detriment into improving the game and they personally helped me with my game problems everytime , team's response time was very quick. So i can only support their patches even forward. Bugs needs to be squashed xD

[j.a.luna]

Of course i also prefer Jurand patches and the continue improving of sship mod, is better than only one release in 1 year o more time... But furthemore of little patches about characters i would like see more improve in units rosters and units models

[TWM2MP]

About patches it is just a joke. lol Everyone stop aggrovating on it. Ofc I approve updates, and I would not suggest changes myself otherwise. Plus making the mod is of modders' concern to decide not mine anyways.

There's been a long discussion and a vote on what to do with the merchants. And the numbers shown by @Lurker are stunning. I don't think we can make with so many merchants.

Thus the number of 20 good units upkeep cost for 1 settlement in a problematic region is even more stunning, believe me.

"the most optimal variant is to make taxation depend on the population number" - the main determinant of the taxation income is the population number. It's the reason why you want to have highly-populated cities.

Nonsense! Why then do I get 3891 florins from taxation 125000 population of Isbiliyya, 3513 from 147400 of Fas, 2648 from 49200 of Qurtuba, 1984 from 9800 of Shilb, 4937 from 154000 of Konstantinoupolis and 1260 from 2500 of Arta? You can check it yourself: turn 1 normal tax rate for all. Even if somehow depends on population number (what it obviously does not), it does meaninglessly small. So it is the reason why you never want to have highly-populated cities and always expand into Western and Central Europe with its averagely-populated and close to each other settlements.

Indeed, Baghdad requires a lot of soldiers as a garrison. It's because of the number of inhabitants. I find it very historical. It was difficult even for a caliph to keep the city under control.

It is difficult, yet possible, BUT until it is a hotseat campaign, where players have brain good enough to use their spies (who cause huge unrest), then it completely ruins all your efforts. To say straight, Bagdad is even a good example, because it has the unique construction improving public order (forgot its name). In other highly-populated cities the situation is far worse.

[sleepyx732]

Hello! New user of SSHIP here (and SS in general) and I'm looking for some clarification for the installation process. Under Installation Instructions it states "Run the SS6.4 setup and choose Early Era campaign with Savage AI, RR/RC enabled and optionally, permanent arrows."

What concerns me here is whereas it states permanent arrows is optional, it does not for RR/RC. However in this quote it seems to be the only place where RR/RC is even mentioned. All users I've seen talking about how to install SSHIP and even in the video showcasing how to do it, there is no mention of RR/RC. In the mods description it makes it sounds as though it still needs adaptation with the other campaigns in the vanilla Medieval 2. Though it's unclear to me as to how I'd get this mod to work along side SSHIP. I'd imagine it's like installing any other mod for Medieval 2 but the instructions for the mod itself seem to be lacking. It states Stainless Steel isn't required, implying it's capable of working along side it regardless.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...tch-2-Released

And in case I misunderstood and the above is not required, how do I go about enabling RR/RC in the base Stainless Steal as it isn't an option in the Setup?

[TWM2MP]

I cannot edit my own posts, so I make the new.

There's been a long discussion and a vote on what to do with the merchants. And the numbers shown by @Lurker are stunning. I don't think we can make with so many merchants.

I did not even say, that you shouldn't touch merchants at all. I said, binding them to warehouses etc. is dumb. And although I am against even limiting their quantity, I said, "in case it [making taxation be based on population] is not possible in this game, or nobody wants to work with it, another solution (still dumb but less) is to further higher the market building level required to recruit merchants." Large city market level (fairground or what's the name) neccessary to recruit a merchant, and ?may be 2 merchants for a huge city level?, would be a better way to go than warehouses (as if Italy is not already economically OP) and guilds . But this is still dumb, and dependance of taxation on population is preferable.

Nonsense! Why then do I get 3891 florins from taxation 125000 population of Isbiliyya, 3513 from 147400 of Fas, 2648 from 49200 of Qurtuba, 1984 from 9800 of Shilb, 4937 from 154000 of Konstantinoupolis and 1260 from 2500 of Arta? You can check it yourself: turn 1 normal tax rate for all.

Very hard difficulty level if it matters. I also forgot to put generals out of the cities, but their 5-10% bonuses don't matter much in this case.

Hello! New user of SSHIP here (and SS in general) and I'm looking for some clarification for the installation process. Under Installation Instructions it states "Run the SS6.4 setup and choose Early Era campaign with Savage AI, RR/RC enabled and optionally, permanent arrows."

What concerns me here is whereas it states permanent arrows is optional, it does not for RR/RC. However in this quote it seems to be the only place where RR/RC is even mentioned. All users I've seen talking about how to install SSHIP and even in the video showcasing how to do it, there is no mention of RR/RC. In the mods description it makes it sounds as though it still needs adaptation with the other campaigns in the vanilla Medieval 2. Though it's unclear to me as to how I'd get this mod to work along side SSHIP. I'd imagine it's like installing any other mod for Medieval 2 but the instructions for the mod itself seem to be lacking. It states Stainless Steel isn't required, implying it's capable of working along side it regardless.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...tch-2-Released

And in case I misunderstood and the above is not required, how do I go about enabling RR/RC in the base Stainless Steal as it isn't an option in the Setup?

Real Recruitment is enable by default. In Setup.exe there is an option to make it disable, so you need to uncheck/not to touch it, as I understand. At least the mod works for me thus.

[Lifthrasir]

Nonsense! Why then do I get 3891 florins from taxation 125000 population of Isbiliyya, 3513 from 147400 of Fas, 2648 from 49200 of Qurtuba, 1984 from 9800 of Shilb, 4937 from 154000 of Konstantinoupolis and 1260 from 2500 of Arta? You can check it yourself: turn 1 normal tax rate for all. Even if somehow depends on population number (what it obviously does not), it does meaninglessly small. So it is the reason why you never want to have highly-populated cities and always expand into Western and Central Europe with its averagely-populated and close to each other settlements.

I don't exactly know how the taxation system works in game actually but I don't think it is that simple. I'm pretty sure that other parameters have to be taken into account.
In any case, merchants make too much money once they have reached a certain level. That basically ruins the micromanagement of your incomes and armies. That's unrealistic and not funny to have unlimited funds IMO. And tbh, during the consultation about merchants, I was even in favor to remove them entirely.

Hello! New user of SSHIP here (and SS in general) and I'm looking for some clarification for the installation process. Under Installation Instructions it states "Run the SS6.4 setup and choose Early Era campaign with Savage AI, RR/RC enabled and optionally, permanent arrows."

What concerns me here is whereas it states permanent arrows is optional, it does not for RR/RC. However in this quote it seems to be the only place where RR/RC is even mentioned. All users I've seen talking about how to install SSHIP and even in the video showcasing how to do it, there is no mention of RR/RC. In the mods description it makes it sounds as though it still needs adaptation with the other campaigns in the vanilla Medieval 2. Though it's unclear to me as to how I'd get this mod to work along side SSHIP. I'd imagine it's like installing any other mod for Medieval 2 but the instructions for the mod itself seem to be lacking. It states Stainless Steel isn't required, implying it's capable of working along side it regardless.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...tch-2-Released

And in case I misunderstood and the above is not required, how do I go about enabling RR/RC in the base Stainless Steal as it isn't an option in the Setup?

Permanent arrow is optional.
RR/RC should be ticked by default when the setup is launched. That's because RR/RC was included in SS and originally, if it wasn't enabled, it was causing issues with SS6.4 (if my memory serves me well). So actually, that's just a check rather than a requierement.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Nonsense! Why then do I get 3891 florins from taxation 125000 population of Isbiliyya, 3513 from 147400 of Fas, 2648 from 49200 of Qurtuba, 1984 from 9800 of Shilb, 4937 from 154000 of Konstantinoupolis and 1260 from 2500 of Arta? You can check it yourself: turn 1 normal tax rate for all. Even if somehow depends on population number (what it obviously does not), it does meaninglessly small. So it is the reason why you never want to have highly-populated cities and always expand into Western and Central Europe with its averagely-populated and close to each other settlements.

I can discern the relation between population and income in the numbers you provided. There're also buildings that impact on those numbers and I'd guess they are responsible for devations, you might also left the generals inside etc.

I may also recall the often-cited (by myself) data from a Poland's campaign on VH/VH form 092 campaign. We've changed nothing of the parameters (but traits of generals), so I see no reason why it wouldn't hold anymore. Of course, the buildings present in a settlement have a very strong impact on profitability of the settlement, but it scales with the number of inhabitants.



Costs of the garrisons impact much on the profitability of a settlement. It may also be negative and may make controlling a city a net loss. It happens if you have underdeveloped cities, not big cities. The big cities with much infrastructure will always provide most money - but they're difficult to control - a general may die or the faction leader may die or there might be a civil war etc.
A table for reference:


From what I've noticed about hotseat campaigns, there're always special rules for the use of spies by the players.

[TWM2MP]

In any case, merchants make too much money once they have reached a certain level. That basically ruins the micromanagement of your incomes and armies. That's unrealistic and not funny to have unlimited funds IMO. And tbh, during the consultation about merchants, I was even in favor to remove them entirely.

Already 2, Lurker and me, reported to you about their level reaching beyong 10 in this mod. I do not remember how much they can make in the level 10, but I am sure, numbers like 8k-10k from 1 merchant are from there. It would be better to fix their overlimited skill points and merely make them recruitable since the large city market level.

From what I've noticed about hotseat campaigns, there're always special rules for the use of spies by the players.

They are usually about chances and opening the gates. I have never seen a rule prohibiting keeping spies inside settlements. Although it can be implemented, but too much control needed to maintain it... Plus in any case AI seldom use spies too.

I can discern the relation between population and income in the numbers you provided. There're also buildings that impact on those numbers and I'd guess they are responsible for devations, you might also left the generals inside etc.

I may also recall the often-cited (by myself) data from a Poland's campaign on VH/VH form 092 campaign. We've changed nothing of the parameters (but traits of generals), so I see no reason why it wouldn't hold anymore. Of course, the buildings present in a settlement have a very strong impact on profitability of the settlement, but it scales with the number of inhabitants.

Excuse me, mister! I cannot take your spreadsheet seriously, cause your own assertion contradicts it.

Of course, the buildings present in a settlement have a very strong impact on profitability of the settlement, but it scales with the number of inhabitants.

Your dry data does not contain any info about your constructions, settlements levels, even which provinces they are in, so considering such a big scale, it is useless. But you were right in the first place. Taxation clearly depends on population. I have just made tests. Via the console I brought pops of Fas, Qurtuba and Murrakus to the same amount of 150000, leaving all buildings untouched. Each of them (VHD, normal tax rate, without generals) collected 3923 florins through taxes. Qurtuba is a large city, therefore even settlement level does not affect. However, the citadel of Granata gives 3138 florins in result, so settlement type matters. But I bet it is due to accounting the squalor, which in its turn depends fixed to the population number, castles get 60% squalor at 150000, while cities 50%, and 3138 / 3923 = 0.8, so people beyong the poverty line do not pay taxes. By the way I put generals out, and Constantinople's taxes dropped from 4937 to 39?? (Byzantine basileus has huge bonuses), and in Isbiliyya they became less than in Fas.

I don't exactly know how the taxation system works in game actually but I don't think it is that simple.

Yes, it is that simple.


I know not the formula used for taxes calculation, but it is certainly incompatible with increase of soldiers' number required to maintain public order in so populated cities. From 125000 humans (Isbiliyya) to 147400 (Fas), averagely 1 subject pays 0.008839 florins, from 147400 (Fas) to 150000 (Murrakus) - 0.007307 florins. Thus we see 1260 florins from 2500 in Arta and 3923 from 150000 people in Murrakus. This is unacceptably terrible and must be changed. For example, 50 florins per every 1000 is more reasonable.

Costs of the garrisons impact much on the profitability of a settlement. It may also be negative and may make controlling a city a net loss. It happens if you have underdeveloped cities, not big cities. The big cities with much infrastructure will always provide most money - but they're difficult to control - a general may die or the faction leader may die or there might be a civil war etc.
A table for reference:

At first, add 50% distance from capital penalty to public order and possible spies.
At second it happens to the big cities too, at least if you take in attention the first.
At third, listen! I believe this, but there was a reason, why all those caliphs and sultans fought for Bagdad, Basra, Alexandria etc. and for existence wide-spreaded Umayyad, Abbasid, Rashidun caliphates in those problematic regions in this game. And guess why? Because THEY WERE PROFITABLE. Deserts are very large, but no one tries to conquer them. From historical accuracy point of view this table is complete .

[Jurand of Cracow]

Already 2, Lurker and me, reported to you about their level reaching beyong 10 in this mod. I do not remember how much they can make in the level 10, but I am sure, numbers like 8k-10k from 1 merchant are from there. It would be better to fix their overlimited skill points and merely make them recruitable since the large city market level.

Yep, I'll have a look at the points (actually one trigger is enough) but I'm quite convinced about making changes I've desribed. It's been long in the plans.

Your dry data does not contain any info about your constructions, settlements levels, even which provinces they are in, so considering such a big scale, it is useless.

with 18 settlements it's already a statistics and it's quite useful.

Anyway, there's much work improvements possible.

[Abdmzn]

Costs of the garrisons impact much on the profitability of a settlement. It may also be negative and may make controlling a city a net loss. It happens if you have underdeveloped cities, not big cities. The big cities with much infrastructure will always provide most money - but they're difficult to control - a general may die or the faction leader may die or there might be a civil war etc.

I personally never had problems with large settlements, improvements -and especially unique buildings- help a lot with corruption and public order. on the other hand, smaller settlements are terrible, especially one that are far from the Capital, the army needed to garrison them costs way more than the profits generated by the city due to ridiculous corruption growth with distance, this is especially bad for eastern settlements where they are far apart.
You could try and develop them, but most of their populations seem to be capped unless you are able to get your hand chivalrous general, which is especially hard to do in hotseats.
I was playing the Fatimid Caliphate, and eventhough I had control of Cairo, Baghdad and stacked Merchants on top of gold, I didn't have enough income to maintain more than one stack active and out of a settlement, all of my other armies had to be inside settlements or they would rebel. this is especially problematic because European factions (especially western ones) don't have to deal with these problems as their settlements are not far apart, it creates unbalance.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I personally never had problems with large settlements, improvements -and especially unique buildings- help a lot with corruption and public order. on the other hand, smaller settlements are terrible, especially one that are far from the Capital, the army needed to garrison them costs way more than the profits generated by the city due to ridiculous corruption growth with distance, this is especially bad for eastern settlements where they are far apart.

It's even worse in Eastern Europe. And this is intentional.

You could try and develop them, but most of their populations seem to be capped unless you are able to get your hand chivalrous general

This is the whole point of my modding! Management of your generals is a building block of the game for me. The logic is such:
1. you need bigger settlements to have more money <=
2. you need to upgrade your settlements <=
3. farms and other growth buildings are not enough <=
4. only Chivalrous (and with +growth) generals can make a difference <=
5. you need to gain Chivalry so you need to fight battles personally - only then you get those traits.

I was playing the Fatimid Caliphate, and eventhough I had control of Cairo, Baghdad and stacked Merchants on top of gold, I didn't have enough income to maintain more than one stack active and out of a settlement, all of my other armies had to be inside settlements or they would rebel. this is especially problematic because European factions (especially western ones) don't have to deal with these problems as their settlements are not far apart, it creates unbalance.

This is the point of the SSHIP. Conquering is easy, but keeping control - difficult. Good!