[DOWNLOAD] SSHIP ver. 0.97 (outdated, use v. 098)

[SerbianWOLF]

That's correct and I thank you again for that. But anything about their society, military organisation, economy, etc, would also be good

You are welcome.


Military organization was very similar to Byzantine one with some Slavic traditions in early and later with some tactics of western countries. Army equipment was mostly byzantine(early era). In this early period Serbian army relied on axe, speared units and javelin throwers/archers(derived from old Slavic tactics). Heavy cav was not that strong and numerous enough to hold ground against Byzantine, Hungarian and Bulgarian, due to economical limits. Pretty much ambush tactics in hilly terrain with that combination and cavalry making surprise attacks in flanks destroyed a lot of byzantine and Bulgarian heavy cavs and infantry and held Serbia independent for many years. Nobles were most professional heavy cav and unit in Serbian army but their number made them weak compared to neighbors Pretty much you have all early cav. you are missing late ones if I remember. Pronoia cav is missing if I remember correctly. Just what is a big miss is Vlastela. they are horse archers and when they get out of ammo they pull spear. Nope. Vlastela were heavy cav(Vlastela can be translated to "Nobles") armed with one of the best weapons and armor(in early era mostly byzantine with some small elements from italians, in late era mostly italian/german style) charging wtih spear/lance+shield and in melee sword+shield. typical heavy cav. Also men-at-arms are missing if your mod goes to 1310s. But we will talk later about unit details.

Economy was random. for such small nation with small iron mines, agriculture, fish ... did not produce so strong economy. Later more lands were conquered, discovered a lot of gold,silver and some other metal resources in Kosovo and Metohija and other part of kingdom. Metallurgy developed so much which boosted up serbian army in both infantry and heavy cav + some artillery.

Society. Well speaking of religion, majority was considered Orthodox. But there were also catholic Serbs mostly around Adriatic coast and also there were Slavic Pagans who did not wanted to convert to christianity. Serbia at this time was developing as feudal state, but still people acted like tribal people. It was hard to completely unite such people. 2-3 times Serbian lands were divided into several principalities. Not until Nemanjic dynasty taken throne. I am not sure if this is what you wanted, but for M2TW I only see religion as important, correct me if I am wrong If you need more tell me and I hope this short info I posted is helpful. Also tell me when you start(if you want to start) making Serbian units. It think it is better to start sending you more detailed infos+pics than to send them right now.

[Lifthrasir]

That's a good start. I just need to "digest" that and I'll revert to you

[Alavaria]

In this early period Serbian army relied on axe, speared units and javelin throwers/archers(derived from old Slavic tactics).

Did they have any tradition of heavy infantry, or was it mostly light? Thinking of spearmen, who usually form the front if there is a direct battle, which is what M2TW does).

Heavy cav was not that strong and numerous enough to hold ground against Byzantine, Hungarian and Bulgarian, due to economical limits. Pretty much ambush tactics in hilly terrain with that combination and cavalry making surprise attacks in flanks destroyed a lot of byzantine and Bulgarian heavy cavs and infantry and held Serbia independent for many years. Nobles were most professional heavy cav and unit in Serbian army but their number made them weak compared to neighbors Pretty much you have all early cav. you are missing late ones if I remember. Pronoia cav is missing if I remember correctly. Just what is a big miss is Vlastela. they are horse archers and when they get out of ammo they pull spear. Nope. Vlastela were heavy cav(Vlastela can be translated to "Nobles") armed with one of the best weapons and armor(in early era mostly byzantine with some small elements from italians, in late era mostly italian/german style) charging wtih spear/lance+shield and in melee sword+shield. typical heavy cav.

So if I understand correctly, their heavy cav unit will be of the type "Noble Cavalry" (or I guess "Vlastela rather than "Knight" and probably be (at least for early, ie: Castle level) a unit with low replentishment in EDB. If they're not a standard professional corps they might be put in the "Local Guard" buildings, which are in cities, rather than castles (the higher level for Large Cities might have better replentishment).'

Uh for the other part, would it be represented as lighter melee cavalry as opposed to charge cavalry?

Economy was random. for such small nation with small iron mines, agriculture, fish ... did not produce so strong economy. Later more lands were conquered, discovered a lot of gold,silver and some other metal resources in Kosovo and Metohija and other part of kingdom. Metallurgy developed so much which boosted up serbian army in both infantry and heavy cav + some artillery.

Well this sounds already reflected in the usual game mechanics.

Well, one thing that would be nice is if the Serbian units were the type starting off with say low armor (light units) but are able to get decent armor upgrades, which is about the best you can represent this sort of improved arming. If I understand right, having gold armor is +6, which can be quite a change if you had a spearman unit starting with say 2 armor. They can improve from light to heavy, as it were.

The later/more elite/noble units start off with already good armor and upgrade further, obviously in context of mod this would be gated behind the actual new technology. So mostly just an issue of making sure units have the appropriate upgrade levels.

I don't really know how the unit upgrades are intended to be balanced in the game, certainly highly upgradeable units can be much more powerful than those who are not (especially if these upgrades are available earlier on, so primarily for lower-tier units)

Society. Well speaking of religion, majority was considered Orthodox. But there were also catholic Serbs mostly around Adriatic coast and also there were Slavic Pagans who did not wanted to convert to christianity. Serbia at this time was developing as feudal state, but still people acted like tribal people. It was hard to completely unite such people. 2-3 times Serbian lands were divided into several principalities. Not until Nemanjic dynasty taken throne. I am not sure if this is what you wanted, but for M2TW I only see religion as important, correct me if I am wrong

Well a faction can only have one "religion", however I believe you can adjust the descriptions of say buildings per faction, so a "Orthodoc Church" built by Serbia could have a description tailored to this, rather than the generic description.

[SerbianWOLF]

That's a good start. I just need to "digest" that and I'll revert to you

OK. Also I forgot to tell you that faction icon should be changed, flags(I also posted banner images) and if I remember correctly name of faction leader is wrong.

Did they have any tradition of heavy infantry, or was it mostly light? Thinking of spearmen, who usually form the front if there is a direct battle, which is what M2TW does).

Heavy infantry did exist. Just their number and equipment were not as numerous/as good as Byzantine for example due to economic limits. For example Bashtiniks which are in game, were lesser nobles, which means they have money for equipment of heavy infantry(in mod are light and weak which is not correct). Also some of better armored units did exist. Reason why more lighter units were used is because of their speed and could be afforded in bigger numbers. No matter they did not have heavy armor, they were skilled, not just being peasants. in mountains and such terrain, the lighter you are, there are good chances of victory. Why ? In heavy armor you get tired and are not flexible. In battle of Bar, Byzantines had more numerous army and better equipped and armored and still were destroyed by Serbs. As we move to later date infantry and cav becomes more numerous and more armored/equipped. Spears were one of the first line units along with axe ones(not so much unique when it came to fighting like in M2TW). I can't remember source but I read that at battle of Sirmium Byzantines had some professional Serbian spearmen(which means they were not that light). In 12th century there were both but still light ones were more numerous and I would say common.

So if I understand correctly, their heavy cav unit will be of the type "Noble Cavalry" (or I guess "Vlastela rather than "Knight" and probably be (at least for early, ie: Castle level) a unit with low replentishment in EDB. If they're not a standard professional corps they might be put in the "Local Guard" buildings, which are in cities, rather than castles (the higher level for Large Cities might have better replentishment).'

Knights(Serbian, not mercs) did not exist in Serbia prior to 14th century. There were knights(nobles for themselves not interfiering in politics and state),king's soldiers men-at-arms and Vlastela which were traditional nobles but with best equipment because they were rich and also had some support from king(if they did not than they would mostly rebel and king would mostly finish his career ). For early campaign cav should be hardly available if we want historical and not what if, but for later campaign heavy cav was more available and was very common. there are so little sources about army organization and tactics at this period. But I would say that heavy cav for early era should not be changed, only some upgrades for existing ones.

Uh for the other part, would it be represented as lighter melee cavalry as opposed to charge cavalry?

Both cavalries were present. the one that charges with spear and the ones light that go just with axes, javelins(swords were not much availabe in early era)

Well, one thing that would be nice is if the Serbian units were the type starting off with say low armor (light units) but are able to get decent armor upgrades, which is about the best you can represent this sort of improved arming. If I understand right, having gold armor is +6, which can be quite a change if you had a spearman unit starting with say 2 armor. They can improve from light to heavy, as it were.

I agree. Serbia should start with lighter units(only nobles like early vlastela and bashtiniks as heavy) and with upgrade(either as ug1 or new unit that will be recruitable, that's for mod team to decide )

The later/more elite/noble units start off with already good armor and upgrade further, obviously in context of mod this would be gated behind the actual new technology. So mostly just an issue of making sure units have the appropriate upgrade levels.

Yeah something like that would be cool.

I don't really know how the unit upgrades are intended to be balanced in the game, certainly highly upgradeable units can be much more powerful than those who are not (especially if these upgrades are available earlier on, so primarily for lower-tier units)

Those that are nobles and were more professional and better should have better upgrade than some ordinary early units.

Well a faction can only have one "religion", however I believe you can adjust the descriptions of say buildings per faction, so a "Orthodoc Church" built by Serbia could have a description tailored to this, rather than the generic description.

If you wanna something unique than you could have something like building some famous churches at that time. Also Serbian church was not independent in 1100 but it WAS in 1220. Or if it is possbile to build some church that will give you "church independence" and increase piety of ruler or even authority. something like that

Hope I managed to completely answer on your questions. If not ask again what it is unclear and I hope I will be able to answer you more detailed.

[Lifthrasir]

That's basically the same principle as for Norway or Scotland. You start with a kind of "tribal" units, a bit better than the common one of Western factions but in lesser amount for the Early Era and with the time going, you get access to better units more in the Western professional army style. This is a very quick summary but I got the idea.

The 1st point is that if an unit starts as a light one, it has to stay light for the upgrades. That's because if you make it heavy for the upgrade, basically, you'll get a heavy unit (for the stats) moving like a light one. That's not really realistic. On the other hand, with the right stats, that should do.

The 2nd point is that if we limit the access to mounted units for the Early Era, then we need to find a bonus for the Serbian units to counterbalance that otherwise the gameplay is going to be ruined and Serbia won't survived for long (due to its position and its neighbouring factions).

Would it be realistic to make a spearmen unit able to throw javelins?
About archers, was the bow often used at that time or not? Same about crossbow?

[SerbianWOLF]

The 1st point is that if an unit starts as a light one, it has to stay light for the upgrades. That's because if you make it heavy for the upgrade, basically, you'll get a heavy unit (for the stats) moving like a light one. That's not really realistic. On the other hand, with the right stats, that should do.

I agree on that.

The 2nd point is that if we limit the access to mounted units for the Early Era, then we need to find a bonus for the Serbian units to counterbalance that otherwise the gameplay is going to be ruined and Serbia won't survived for long (due to its position and its neighbouring factions).

Limited or not they still won't be much recruitable as Serbian faction really lacks money I think their price makes things balanced as cav is espensive and I was not able to buy more than 1 heavy cav unit due to lack of money

Would it be realistic to make a spearmen unit able to throw javelins?

Well, spear is not attached to your body. You could always throw it. If you have free slots(or can delete some useless unit) than you could create those. Throwing spearmen did exist in Serbian army

About archers, was the bow often used at that time or not? Same about crossbow?

Bow was used. And archers were good. You already have archers. for example rename bashtinik archers to Serbian Archers or something like that. One thing to be clear. No nobles in Serbia used bow !!! As for Crossbow, it was alien weapon at that time for Serbs No, that early it was not used. It was started with use in 14th century, I think.

[rebypox]

Is there a patch? I already have SShip .8

[Marc Byzantinum]

Hi, Heretics are too strong, is there a possibility to weaken them? There is a submod/fix for SS. Is it compatible?

Thank you for a reply! !!

Greets Marc

[Lifthrasir]

We haven't touched them and they are like in SS. I have no idea if that submod is compatible with SSHIP.

[Alavaria]

Well you can probably adjust the text file which determines variables relevant to characters (eg: priests, heretics, witches etc)

the descr_campaign_db.xml which has:

	<religion>
		<max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_witches uint="30"/>
		<max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_heretics uint="40"/>
		<max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="3.0"/>
		<max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
		<max_inquisitors uint="10"/>
		<heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.01"/>
		<heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
		<witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
		<witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
		<inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.015"/>
		<inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
		<priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
		<priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
		<witch_creation_modifier float="25.0"/>
		<heretic_creation_modifier float="10.0"/>
		<inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.3"/>
		<min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
		<convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="8.0"/>
		<convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.35"/>
		<inquisitor_turn_start uint="180"/>
		<inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
		<founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
		<neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.05"/>
		<governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.005"/>
		<governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.001"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
		<owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.01"/>
		<spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
	</religion>

If I had to guess, the heretic/witch conversion is strong relative to most settlements (you only get like 2% unless it is a Large City+) lets them rack up a bunch of +piety traits. Similar thing for priests, really, if you use then enmasse as they all work off their cumulative conversion to get traits.

The fact that 10+ piety priests are "rather bad" vs 6 piety heretics is ... yeah (they can suddenly turn into a 10+ piety heretic which is annoying).


Well, let's take a look at the files I guess. The bugfix doesn't seem to change the campaign_db, the author also says it works via the export_descr_character_traits

[Dekhatres]

can i have a download link for previous version ?

[Marc Byzantinum]

Well you can probably adjust the text file which determines variables relevant to characters (eg: priests, heretics, witches etc)

the descr_campaign_db.xml which has:

    <religion>
        <max_witches_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_witches uint="30"/>
        <max_heretics_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_heretics uint="40"/>
        <max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="3.0"/>
        <max_inquisitors_per_region uint="1"/>
        <max_inquisitors uint="10"/>
        <heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.01"/>
        <heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
        <witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.025"/>
        <witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
        <inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.015"/>
        <inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.04"/>
        <priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
        <priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.01"/>
        <witch_creation_modifier float="25.0"/>
        <heretic_creation_modifier float="10.0"/>
        <inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.3"/>
        <min_cardinal_piety uint="5"/>
        <convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="8.0"/>
        <convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.35"/>
        <inquisitor_turn_start uint="180"/>
        <inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
        <founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0"/>
        <neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.05"/>
        <governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.005"/>
        <governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.001"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.001"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.002"/>
        <owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.01"/>
        <spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
    </religion>

If I had to guess, the heretic/witch conversion is strong relative to most settlements (you only get like 2% unless it is a Large City+) lets them rack up a bunch of +piety traits. Similar thing for priests, really, if you use then enmasse as they all work off their cumulative conversion to get traits.

The fact that 10+ piety priests are "rather bad" vs 6 piety heretics is ... yeah (they can suddenly turn into a 10+ piety heretic which is annoying).


Well, let's take a look at the files I guess. The bugfix doesn't seem to change the campaign_db, the author also says it works via the export_descr_character_traits

Thank you very much for that informations, are changes in descr_campaign_db.xml
savegame compatible?

[achilles-91]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...design-Project

MWY and Lifth, check this when you have time. I think it would be great to include those new stratmap castles.

[MWY]

Those look pretty similar to mine.

[Napoleon Ier and Darth Vader#1]

Does this submod work on late campaign as well?

[Monk_xx]

Does this submod work on late campaign as well?

Yes, it does.

[Napoleon Ier and Darth Vader#1]

Thanks!!!

[misteroth]

Hello !
First i want to thank you all contributors for this mod
Sorry, English is not my first language

I play with Moors, and in cities/castle windows the name is written with large space.
For example : it must be (large city - Murrakush) I have (large city - Murrakush)
I want to delete these space, and how to do?

Thank you

[misteroth]

Sorry (large - Murrakush)

[PerXX]

I'm not entirely sure what you want, but as long as you own the settlement, you can simply select it, click the name and rename it to whatever you want.