SSHIP - General Discussion

[Aquila SPQR]

I'm actually quite interested what Aquila didn't like in the crown system. The crowns are in the SS6.4, just for Poland (and a bunch of other factions) they don't work...
In the SS it's not even 2TPY, it's 1TPY, iirc. And changing it into 4 TPY will break all the traits 2 times more than the SSHIP.
The diplomacy issues I can understand, the behaviour of the pope has always been a problem.

Crowns are in SS 6.4? I don't remember I've ever encountered it. I'm talking about paying 20000 to have my ruler crowned. I know it doesn't work but I still don't like the idea (especially with 2tpy when ruler may change quite quickly).

SS is 1tpy but I was always changing it to 4 or even 6tpy and it was working fine, I haven't seen any examples of game breaking traits. To be honest SS 6.4 is great, the only issue I've always had with it were stacks of AI armies. I remember my last SS game where I tried to reclaim Palestine as Byzantium and I had to face about 8 or more full AI armies, not to mention even more full stacks of other muslim countries just waiting at my borders. Now when I know how to change the recruitment of units I can try to modify it to my liking. I've reduced replenishment time dramatically and so far I like how it is.
Also for SS I can install Royal Ladies of the Court which fixes stupid vanilla marriages system.
I also like to focus on economy, not on warfare (occasional battles are fun, but speaking plainly - battles are not my fav part of TW games). On SS I can select more peaceful AI and relations work well so far - I have good with my neighbours so far and for example Portuguese living on the other side of the continent are not mad at me for some unknown reason like it was always in SSHIP. Also AI is not as warmongering - in SSHIP AI was frenzy, declaring wars like mad, there was an eternal cycle of truce and war between Sicily and Byzantium - they were declaring war, signing truce few turns later only to declare war on the next turn and so on for the 80 turns or more...

I think I understand the choices you've made (with no late campaign start many players would never reach late units at 4tpy), crowns add more depth and challenges etc. but I think that SSHIP not only fixes what I disliked the most in SS (army stacks) but also adds things I'm not too fond of. So it'll be better for me to try to eliminate those stacks in SS without adding anything else.
Of course it's totally subjective opinion and I understand that others may love new features of SSHIP, because you did a really good job inventing and adding them to the game through scripts.

[Nemesis2345]

Yea , i thought as much that 4tpy would have to rework the whole scripts and traits events which would be a massive pain in the butt.
Also, any plans on reworking the religious units? Like how are they recruited for example cause right now they pop in and out of recruitment avalability , idk what caused that, was it the reputation or what?

[Lifthrasir]

Yes, their availability is tied to your reputation. If your reputation is bad, you can't recruit them. Something I'd like to review at some stage tbh.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yeah, my take-away from this discussion is again "à chacun son goût".

Crowns are in SS 6.4? I don't remember I've ever encountered it. I'm talking about paying 20000 to have my ruler crowned. I know it doesn't work but I still don't like the idea (especially with 2tpy when ruler may change quite quickly).

Why something that doesn't work, and I even know it doesn't work, would be one of 3 major problems with the mod, is a mystery to me.

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Besides, I've checked the game for the Princesses names - and they get their names, they're not nameless. Can somebody upload a save with those nameless princesses?

And again, those groups of Princesses around a city - can I get a save with it?

To be sure, currently the princesses are without traits.

[Aquila SPQR]

Why something that doesn't work, and I even know it doesn't work, would be one of 3 major problems with the mod, is a mystery to me.

If I recall corretly my ruler had the "uncrowned" trait and I assumed it was giving him/his vassals some penalties. I understood "not working" as "having an uncrowned ruler gives you penalties but you can't remove them because the whole crowning system doesn't work yet". That's the first thing. Second is that there's no point for me to stick to this submod since you're going to implement that system in one of the future releases.

"à chacun son goût"

Exactly. It seems my own changes to SS are looking good, so maybe I finally have what I wanted to have - more peaceful SS 6.4 with RLC and without stack spamming.

[Lifthrasir]

I won't try to convince you to change your mind. Everybody is free to use this mod or not. And if you don't want to wait for the next release, fair enough

But from my understanding, there's no penalty. You get some unrest once you realm become quite large. So to expand further, you just need to get the crown. That's not compulsory but without it, it will be more difficult to keep a good public order, expecially for settlements far away from your capital.
Also, note that JoC will lower down the amount of required regions and most of the time, the player will expand towards the required regions anyway. So, it should be fine and not too penalizing for the player. It will just add a bit of political management - I'd say.

[officialdeo]

I won't try to convince you to change your mind. Everybody is free to use this mod or not. And if you don't want to wait for the next release, fair enough

But from my understanding, there's no penalty. You get some unrest once you realm become quite large. So to expand further, you just need to get the crown. That's not compulsory but without it, it will be more difficult to keep a good public order, expecially for settlements far away from your capital.
Also, note that JoC will lower down the amount of required regions and most of the time, the player will expand towards the required regions anyway. So, it should be fine and not too penalizing for the player. It will just add a bit of political management - I'd say.

Here's hoping the team will focus more on political management for various factions. It adds more incentive to play tall (my style when playing CK & EU) and use different horses for different courses.

I don't know how my experience differs a lot from Aquila's but I never experienced anything like warmongering AI except when I play on VH. If I want to conquer Palestine as the Roman Empire I'd just do a Skantarios on SS 6.4 instead of playing SSHIP.

[Andrew1994]

Have you consider making religious unit being automatically disbanded after a crusade for the AI.cause i have noticed that AI tends to spam those units

[officialdeo]

Is it possible to create a new option in the diplomacy window? For example, offering suzerainty or vassalage without being in a state of war against the target faction. Of course, the prerequisite should be difficult enough to prevent abuse, e.g. big discrepancy in military power. I feel that this will go a long way towards improving the political aspects of the game. Historically speaking, I recall several kingdoms had this kind of tributary relationship with a much stronger neighbour.

I also have other questions regarding the historicity of certain mechanics I "discovered" in order to reasonably play SSHIP in its current state but this will do for now.

[Lifthrasir]

Is it possible to create a new option in the diplomacy window? For example, offering suzerainty or vassalage without being in a state of war against the target faction. Of course, the prerequisite should be difficult enough to prevent abuse, e.g. big discrepancy in military power. I feel that this will go a long way towards improving the political aspects of the game. Historically speaking, I recall several kingdoms had this kind of tributary relationship with a much stronger neighbour.

I also have other questions regarding the historicity of certain mechanics I "discovered" in order to reasonably play SSHIP in its current state but this will do for now.

It should be via script and probably beside that window. Unfortunately, that's our current problem: we don't have a scripter anymore

Have you consider making religious unit being automatically disbanded after a crusade for the AI.cause i have noticed that AI tends to spam those units

Disbanding crusading/jihading armies once the mission is over have been discussed by the past in order to not create extra costs for the AI who tends to bring them back to its realm, causing a quite huge debt in the treasury.
For religious units, I think that their recruitment and availability should be reviewed.

[kaiser29]

how long should i leave my young generals in cities with schools/castles? i've read that they are considered scholars the first eight years, so that means that they should be 100% ready at the age of 22? or is it 23?

[Jurand of Cracow]

how long should i leave my young generals in cities with schools/castles? i've read that they are considered scholars the first eight years, so that means that they should be 100% ready at the age of 22? or is it 23?

Point me where this is written, I'll correct it.
Actually, in the 096:
- schooling time has been reduced from 8 to 6 years,
- teenager trait has been added - but removed once a character enters the age of 20,
- scholar trait is additional: only some characters would be born with this trait, and only administrtively minded - and they can learn throughout his whole life (ie achieve the 4th level of administrative education).
Basically:
- if there's a school, a general can leave as soon as he is "Schooled",
- if there's a university - he should leave when he lost the Teenager trait (ie he's 20)
- if he's the Scholar trait - once he got PhD (4th level of administrative education). In the next version Scholar will be able to get books from the libraries so they'll better stay in the big cities throughout their all lifes (you'll move them from one city to another since with 4th level of education they'll be able to increas the city income perhaps by 50%)

[Lifthrasir]

50%? Is that not a bit too much?

[Jurand of Cracow]

50%? Is that not a bit too much?

Well, perhaps the best of the best. With all the perks, books, specializations. Normally, the PhD gives maybe 15% increase. But a well educated guy can easier get traits like Good_Taxman or books, or be granted a ministerial office of treasurer.

Level Master_Western_Ed
Description Master_Western_Ed_desc
EffectsDescription Master_Western_Ed_effects_desc
GainMessage Master_Western_Ed_gain_desc
Threshold 10


Effect TaxCollection 20
Effect Trading 20
Effect Construction 10
Effect Law 1
Effect Piety 1
Effect Squalor -2
Effect Loyalty -2

[Kilo11]

I think that huge bonus is actually right on! I mean, you are talking about someone who has made real intellectual achievements in a time when those were rare. Given that, I would imagine someone with proper schooling and the right attitude could make a huge difference. Also, I can't imagine any given faction will have a large number of such developed individuals. Definitely something which would be good to keep an eye on during playtesting, but on the face of it, I think the numbers seem okay (because I assume not many people will get to that high a level).

[officialdeo]

Well, perhaps the best of the best. With all the perks, books, specializations. Normally, the PhD gives maybe 15% increase. But a well educated guy can easier get traits like Good_Taxman or books, or be granted a ministerial office of treasurer.

Level Master_Western_Ed
Description Master_Western_Ed_desc
EffectsDescription Master_Western_Ed_effects_desc
GainMessage Master_Western_Ed_gain_desc
Threshold 10


Effect TaxCollection 20
Effect Trading 20
Effect Construction 10
Effect Law 1
Effect Piety 1
Effect Squalor -2
Effect Loyalty -2

I definitely support this idea. This will better incentivise tall game instead of the usual conquering everything in order to make progress.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think that huge bonus is actually right on! I mean, you are talking about someone who has made real intellectual achievements in a time when those were rare. Given that, I would imagine someone with proper schooling and the right attitude could make a huge difference. Also, I can't imagine any given faction will have a large number of such developed individuals. Definitely something which would be good to keep an eye on during playtesting, but on the face of it, I think the numbers seem okay (because I assume not many people will get to that high a level).

I think the generals with high numbers will be very rare. And the generals will differ a lot among themselves.
Concening scholars, the likehood of getting one is very low. IIRC, the base is 5% and then there're additional chances depending whether the mother was wise, father educated etc. And only those born in the family can be scholar.

I definitely support this idea. This will better incentivise tall game instead of the usual conquering everything in order to make progress.

Yep, this is indeed my goal of moding.
Below there're concrete principles, as elaborated here.

Across the changes I try to adhere to the following principles:

• Historicity, reality, logic: reflect the middle-ages’ reality, keep it according to our best knowledge on history, be logical.
• Interaction between traits: a trait should appear in the triggers for the other traits so that at the end a personality of a general is consistent and convincing.
• Meaningfullness of the traits: each trait should bear an important information for the player, not to be shrugged off (for instance, if a general is Beyond Battle, it should not be only about -4HP in fight, but if he does appear at the battlefield, he should be very likely to get wounded)
• Cycle-of-life: young and middle-aged generals get the traits fast, but in the old age and after harsh experience they're losing the traits. The oldest generals should not be the best for managing and fighting, it's rather generals of age 30-50 and governors 40-60, who are the best.
• Simpicity: don't make player's life unnecessary difficult, if it's not needed for the other reasons. What follows:
• Consistency: make patterns so that the player can easily get his bearings (eg. the low-level requirements for Piety or Loyalty should be consistently 3, not sometimes 2, and sometimes 4; or: if there’s in a few triggers a special condition for “The Administratively minded generals with Piety”, this “Piety” level should be the same in all triggers)
• Keep the SS logic: the above mentioned patterns should be in line with the logic of the other traits (eg. the benefits for consequtive levels of the money-traits should be 10-20-30).
• Minimality: change the least is needed so that the SS-core stays. I'll not introduce new traits, just modify the existing ones.
• Efficiency: the less code-lines the better, try shooting two birds with one stone: if two things may be coded in one trigger, just do it.
• Documentation: I'll describe in detail what I'm doing and why.

In many triggers the “not Senile” condition is added to show that mental fragility in the old age prevents from getting congnitive traits, while "not Beyond Battle" is added to show that physical aging prevents from gaining physical traits. As a result generals will be able to develop traits even in the old age only if they do not suffer from the old age weaknesses. Both traits will depend on the events in life of a general, usually throgh Robust/Sickly trait. Specifically, in the young age most generals will be Robust, but after it harshness of life (e.g. wounds suffered, battles fought, plagues experienced, alcohol drunk) will make them losing Robust and gaining Sickly. If they do, the Senile and Beyond Battle will be much easier and earlier to acquired. All in all, this should make health of the generals much more important factor to be taken into consideration while playing the SSHIP.

[officialdeo]

Can anyone explain how wife inheritance works? I don't understand how some of the time my newly acquired general gets the trait "Wife Disinherited" and at other times doesn't.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Can anyone explain how wife inheritance works? I don't understand how some of the time my newly acquired general gets the trait "Wife Disinherited" and at other times doesn't.

It seems to be a bugged trait, atm. It plays a role in civil war mechanism. I haven't dealt with this mechanism so I cannot tell more.

[arythm1a]

First of all, thanks for an amazing modmod - the pacing and costs for everything seems right on so far. I have an observation - in my game, two (or even three) traits are extremely common among generals and family members - deranged and begrieved (and to a lesser extent hypochondriac). Especially the insanity traitline seems way too prevalent - over 50% of all my characters and generals have it. Is it something I am doing, or does this need to be looked into? My second question is - what to do if a usurper takes the throne? Is there a way to redeem him, or to support a different candidate?