SSHIP - General Discussion

[shadowtwinz]

@Jurand of Cracow I have a concern about Agent "Health" trait managing. My agents every turn need manual check to avoid Loss of Health or in other words Illness. And in order to solve it after they get Ill i have to move my agent to the settlement :/ . If neglected they eventualy lose their movement points to 1% and there is nothing you can do once it happens. Can something be done about it ? Whats the idea behind it ? Was it made to favour AI in some way ?

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Jurand of Cracow I have a concern about Agent "Health" trait managing. My agents every turn need manual check to avoid Loss of Health or in other words Illness. And in order to solve it after they get Ill i have to move my agent to the settlement :/ . If neglected they eventualy lose their movement points to 1% and there is nothing you can do once it happens. Can something be done about it ? Whats the idea behind it ? Was it made to favour AI in some way ?

Hi Shadow, I'll look into the issue and answer you once I'll be back home (some one week time).
The trait was not made to favour the AI but rather to make the player care for his agents.
By "manual check" you mean there's no information about an agent losing health?
In any case it should not happen so often.
Thanks for the feedback!
JoC

[FatRod]

Hi guys,

Can you please explain how the Ministerial Offices are supposed to be transferred? The documentation says via manual transfer - does that mean via the console? Are you able to provide some info on how exactly that is done?

Cheers

[FatRod]

Hi guys,

Can you please explain how the Ministerial Offices are supposed to be transferred? The documentation says via manual transfer - does that mean via the console? Are you able to provide some info on how exactly that is done?

Cheers

Nevermind, found it! If anyone else is wondering you can just put the generals in the same army, and then drag the retinue to the new one: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...erable-retinue

[Malagricus]

Hi all!

First up: great mod! I really like the immersiveness and the capability to roleplay with the faction members and how smooth and stable everything runs.

My biggest frustration stems from the papacy: is there any way to tame down the Pope's aggressiveness when it comes to conquering the whole of Italy and beyond?
I've started campaigns with 4 factions since the release of 0.9.6 (france, aragon, venice and poland) and every time by around turn 100 Pisa, Sicily and Venice get curbstomped out of most of their territories. As far as i can tell, with mostly the Papal States as aggressors (Definitely the case in my Venice campaign: was very peaceful, held only 4 cities in northern Italy, had an alliance with the Pope and relations were amicable... until he (or a clique of scheming cardinals in Rome?) betrayed me an besieged Bologna.).

I would really like to decrease this sort of behaviour to the absolute minimum, if possible. At least until the later parts of the campaign where it would be more fitting historically in my opinion (though i am by no means an expert on Italy's medieval history).
Is there a way to mod this? A miniMod of sorts that is already proven to work with 0.9.6? Or can i install SS6.4 with a different AI than Savage's? (Lusted's AI was a little tamer, if i remember correctly?)

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice, keep up the good work!
Malagricus.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Malagricus,
you're right - the Pope is indeed very aggressive. In my tests it would have taken Italy as well, after some time, eg.


I don't think there's any minimod alleviating this problem atm. I don't think any other SS AI makes any difference, but who knows... This behaviour existed in the previous SSHIP.

BTW, do you have the maps from your 4 campaigns? Could you post them for the others to see the evolution of the game?
cheers
JoC

[kostic]

I also noticed this aggressiveness of the pope while playing the kingdom of France (v.0.9.5). He attacked the southern region of Lyon when I was not particularly on bad terms with him. His attack immediately excommunicated me. It should be impossible for the papal faction to attack a Christian faction not previously excommunicated. I do not know if this is moddable ...

[Malagricus]

BTW, do you have the maps from your 4 campaigns? Could you post them for the others to see the evolution of the game?
JoC

The two Maps concerning Aragon are from 2 different campaigns. And in the Venice one, i lost my temper and kicked the Pope out of Italy and finally Rome, which (obivously) led to the election of a new Pope.
I really like how the map's colours change from campaign to campaign sometimes. Really shows that the progress of factions is not written in stone in this mod - but not too erratically (at least up to those early times in the campaign).

Too bad about the Papal States and their vigorous expansion.

[Lifthrasir]

Yep, I have no idea why it has become that agressive

[Nemesis2345]

The only ,,fix'' for the Papal States would be to conquer Rome and all their mainland terriotries then GIFT him a settlement on an island such as Rhodes/Palma/ Corsica since i noticed theey cant build boats at all hahahaha so he stays there and does nothing. DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE I DID SOME GAMES AGO WHERE THE POPE HAD 15 REGIONS already

[shadowtwinz]

The only ,,fix'' for the Papal States would be to conquer Rome and all their mainland terriotries then GIFT him a settlement on an island such as Rhodes/Palma/ Corsica since i noticed theey cant build boats at all hahahaha so he stays there and does nothing. DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE I DID SOME GAMES AGO WHERE THE POPE HAD 15 REGIONS already

You can conquer few settlements then and kill their pope then you will receive reconcilation. Some times you can negotiate via diplomacy but that can cost you 2 settlements. Btw, i try not to border beside Papal as it tends to declare war if relation is below 7/10 pope stars on crusade tab

Personally i'd would like to see factions at constant war against other AI factions and not only against player, with a script which can decide in a favour of a smaller faction for autoresolve battles so they not get destroyed. I play BGR IV with gracul the only problem is that AI only goes war against Player( Due to relation mechanic ) everything else works as charm for me.

This mod meant the game to be historical so expansion is limited for Ai but player can always do whatever he wants and expand

[Jurand of Cracow]

@shadow, maybe you can comment here on the BGR?

[Lifthrasir]

To all, a new patch (by JoC) has been released and can be found here. It includes the 2 previous patches plus other stuff (details below):

Change log:
* four missing faction buttons added
* triggers for the Pagan priests redone (completely split from the catholic ones, as they're before)
* triggers related to the health of priests and other agents redone (no more chronically ill agents - actually the trigger restoring health was broken)
* guilds: EDG triggers reviewed and adjusted (based on the late MWY changes): important especially for the masons guild as it was not possible to get the master level;
* adjusted triggers for Books (military & poetic) so that they don't appear instantly for every general staying in a city with great library
* some editorial adjustment in the Historic Events' descriptions
* some modifications to the age values in the descr_campaign_db
* a few typos corrected in the descriptions of traits and ancillaries
* a few names for regions/settlements fixed (Niderlothringen->Coellen, Norwich->East Anglia, Eastern Normandy -> Normandy; Lesser Polan -> Polonia Minor, Greater Poland -> Polonia Maior; several forgotten in Anatolia), swapped fertility of Poznan (3->4) and Plock (4->3);
* initial Wantschool values checked and adjusted (but triggers need some more work: for now education is quite easy)
* fixed Ionannis Vryenios bodyguard error
* CTD appearing ca. 60 turn (due to bad coding of Teutonic Order) fixed

Note that it is not save game compatible

Edit: Before I forget again...
We (dev) have noticed that the AI is less agressive than it used to be. We're not sure what causes this. Anyway, we'd grateful if you, guys, could tell us here how the AI's behaviour is in your campaign wit the patch (less agressive, more agressive, no change). Thanks in advance

[RodriguesSting]

So I've been toying around with Scotland (and a bit of Lithuania) in the Early Campaign, and after four or five restarts, this is what I ended up with. In fact, after this screenshot (and some lost gallowglasses), I took Norwich and, another peace break after, London. But I got excomunicated and, considering another problem, I decided to abort this playthrough at that point.

Anyway, here's the actual important bits. After dealing with the rebel fief up north with my king (with the help of the first gallowglass I hired), I disbanded pretty much all my troops, minus the Clansmen and, of course, the Gallowglass. The scots got pretty decent peasant troops it seems, but still compared to the Clansman that got a pretty decent availability, they are garbage. And then, after some introspection, I realized that the Clansmen are, compared to the Gallowglass, garbage. Gallowglasses got some pretty okay availability (1 every 5 or so turns, building up 2 at max? Not sure personally), a very steep hiring cost (that ironically isn't decreased by Mercenary Captain, more on that later), but ludicrously low upkeep (cheaper than Clansmen!), and performance almost matching Dismounted Mailed Knight Axemen while having almost a third of their upkeep. War with England would come eventually, I believed, and my best hope would be to build up an army of Gallowlasses. Their upfront cost would be a rather large investment, but as my actual softcap of troops is my income, their low upkeep would allow me to maintain a larger standing army, as I could not hope to match an Norman stack with my single castle recruitment when they come knocking, specially as Clansmen take 2 turns. Compounding to the problem, my previous attempt at invasion failed due to the bad quality of my peasants (at least as far as quick battle is concerned, as I am not playing real time battles due to a bad mouse), so the plan was set. Eventually, with a few Clansmen to add volume, my roughly quarter stack would sail to Ireland and take the island. The added income from Dublin would, once again, allow me to hire more Gallowlasses, build up my settlements even further, and turns out, the island itself has its own mercenary pool with its own gallowglasses (at a noticeable slower replenishment, but handy nonetheless).

At this point, I decided to just wait up the Norman aggression to start (I accepted a trade agreement, and despite being a possibility to push for an Aliance, I didn't do it this time) or one of their settlements to rebel. Usually that is York, and I am JUST short of taking it from my capital, but this time, for my surprise, it was Wales. I just expected the Normans to rush in, but a few turns went by until I got a mission from my nobles. I had a small standing army more than match for the garrison, a reasonable navy (3 cogs, good enough for pirates) nearby, and went for it. No trouble with the Normans after, and I noticed something rather interesting: Saxon Huskarls are very similar to Gallowglasses in performance, price, and upkeep, and Wales allowed me to tap into that new military resource. A even quicker build up to take England, with a even better economy to support it. Peace lasted many turns still, until the Normans finally attacked by blockading one of my ports. As I already had a spy infiltrated in York (which becomes VERY important later), I decided to move in for the kill. Right after taking the settlement (thanks to the open gates, no siege needed), the pope demanded to cease hostilities at the risk of excommunication. This would become the norm to every time I would take a settlement, I would use the 8 turns of truce to fix up my latest conquest, hire mercs, and move them to the frontline (NEVER without the company of a general. It was difficult at first, due to the very small Scottish royal family, but time made it easier), infiltrate the next target with my spies, and as soon as the truce expires, move to the next conquest. This lasted all the way through London, until my spy finally failed to open the gates and I had to siege. As soon as my engines were built, the pope demanded ceasefire, and I ignored, resulting in excommunication.

So overall, I think it was a fairly successful campaign, although some things would be changed in a future attempt. Building up an army with Gallowglasses in Scotland and Ireland, and Huskarls in England (where I could also reinforce them, unlike the glasses, that I had to ship up to Scotland), was a fantastic idea, and something I plan to repeat on future campaigns with other factions. The mercenary pool can be a fantastic way to build up your forces without the need for investing in infrastructure, and chances are, at least on the case of Scotland, will be much better than you can get out of said infrastructure anyway. As it also was to emphasize the build up of economic structures asap, to be able to rise up your army of mercenaries sooner and bigger, specially considering that sieging costs 1K a turn, and going red for too long makes your mercenaries (which includes Clansmen, as I found on an earlier attempt) disband.

What would be changed is not waiting for the Normans to attack (I hoped it would help with my reputation to not be the agressor, but it was immediately tanked down after taking York and would just go on to be even worse), not bothering my sole Diplomat with staying in London but Rome instead (as being on the good side of the Pope would SURELY have made things go smoother, specially as I had the income for plenty of gifts), send my priests as missionaries asap (probably to stay in North Africa, as it is on ship way), and rather strangely, as a final conclusion, turn every castle I find in England into a city. Pretty much all troops I can hire in a castle will be worse and cost a higher upkeep than my two ax blokes, that require nothing at all but money, which will come quicker and grow quicker in towns.

Finally, I will install the diplomacy fix (http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2009/11/wh...edieval-2.html) so hopefully not everybody will hate me for trying to stay alive, specially the pope. Also, worth mentioning, I never got crowned in that campaign. It says it takes a settlement with a Great Temple. Is that a tier 3 church? Because I think the only Towns that could build that in England are London and converting the Norman castles.

Edit: Turns out the mod has its own reputation normalization file, which, I presume, is bug free. So my problem was most likely bad normalization due to not having an ally. France or Pope will do next time I play scots.

[Jurand of Cracow]

@RodriquesSting: given your knowledge of the Scottish roster and evolution, maybe you can write in this thread an entry 1. describing the roster, 2. summing up it's strong and weak sides, 3. proposing changes? Have a look at my entry on Poland - I think this is a good wrap-up of the roster facets.

[RodriguesSting]

@RodriquesSting: given your knowledge of the Scottish roster and evolution, maybe you can write in this thread an entry 1. describing the roster, 2. summing up it's strong and weak sides, 3. proposing changes? Have a look at my entry on Poland - I think this is a good wrap-up of the roster facets.

Given that my knowledge consists of 4 to 5 half attempts and one successful early campaign, with little to no manual battles, in the early era, I think I will pass. I'm really not confident that I am qualified to speak on the matter, as I am just barely introduced to the design of the mod. I am used to Europa Barbarorum 2, with small pools of ludicrously expensive troops being recruited in 1 turn, more recruitment slots (specially on winter), and almost never using the disbanding replenishment mechanic (that does a great job of simulating the concept of a medieval levy). Considering that Scotland is also a backwater with a castle that can barely take whatever advantage its rooster can offer... I think I will just limit myself to playing for now.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Given that I also like the EB2 mechanisms a lot, I think we're on the same page.
Silence from the players make the modders not modding ;-) So don't hesitate to tell about your experience.

Concerning simulation of the medieval levies, I've got some thoughts in the past about the possible mechanics. Saddly, there're not modders to implement it :-(

[kostic]

In a simplified and concise manner; what is new with version 0.9.6 ? What are the most ? What are the least ?


Personally, I only had a short time to test the campaigns. I notice the disappearance of the choice of heir and perhaps a slight positive difference in the negotiations with the opposing factions. Some bugs, like the absence of voices with certain factions, other bugs still present (like that of the peasant archers who explode the screen when they die in battle ).
I cannot say more at this time.

[Lifthrasir]

Actually, for Scots, it should be higher and cheaper rate for their units, at least during the early period, to match the fact that Scots actually had limited access to elite units but never ran out of troups during the medieval era. Basically, what Scots can't match in terms of quality (especially compare to the English roster) should be compensated by the quantity and low price.

[Dekhatres]

what a coincidence, i am messing with replenishment rates right now and i was wondering, did kingdoms run out of troops often ? like having nothing to recruit, afaik they mostly ran out of money, then there's the byzantine emperor asking the pope for a few knights, did he run out of soldiers completely or did he just want some good quality ?

troop replenishment i believe could play a bigger role in stoping player from blitzkrieging the map and i think it would be more fun than unrest