SSHIP - General Discussion

[Lifthrasir]

Read again my previous post. Except to represent the Shia and Sunny branches in the Muslim religion, I can't see the point of adding the others as they weren't the main religion of any faction represented in SSHIP.

On top of that and to be (hopefully) clear:
- Judaism: didn't expand or convert that much. On contrary, they were persecuted and/or bannished most of the time.
- Zoroastrianism: For actual Iran area and for a game taking place between the 10th and 2nd centuries BC. Not SSHIP's case.
- Tengrism: as the Mongols became Muslims quite soon after they appear in SSHIP, not sure it's worth.
- Catharism: same as for Judaism somehow. Could be interesting if Crusades and Jihads could be modded in an interesting way (which is not possible).
What else???

[j.a.luna]

Read again my previous post. Except to represent the Shia and Sunny branches in the Muslim religion, I can't see the point of adding the others as they weren't the main religion of any faction represented in SSHIP.

On top of that and to be (hopefully) clear:
- Judaism: didn't expand or convert that much. On contrary, they were persecuted and/or bannished most of the time.
- Zoroastrianism: For actual Iran area and for a game taking place between the 10th and 2nd centuries BC. Not SSHIP's case.
- Tengrism: as the Mongols became Muslims quite soon after they appear in SSHIP, not sure it's worth.
- Catharism: same as for Judaism somehow. Could be interesting if Crusades and Jihads could be modded in an interesting way (which is not possible).
What else???

ok so we need to be clearly for a supposed to add some new religion..so chiies and sunnies is ok(and also had some wars between muslims for this)
tengrism,zoroastrianism and catharism ok, they outside(although it would be great if were possible change religions in the game as mongols in muslims and lithuanians in catholics)

and for judaism i continue thinking that is possible add it how little communities in "special new buildings" similar to other mods as bellum crucis,broken crescent or deus lu vult that if you want build a building called "little jewish neighborhood" with increase trade,income and money in general but decrease public order, happiness and religion conversion, so with this you not need make a new religion,only a new building(that include jews people) and decrease conversion with maybe heretic religion, also it would be possible to upgrade this building for do it bigger,but is your decision my dear Lifth


and on the other hand, talking about crusaders recruit,i think that crusaders states could have that not affect reputation system for can recruit all templars,hospitaller,teutonic units...is no logic that the main kingdom of Crusaders can not recruit them, since they were based mainly on religious orders

[Alavaria]

The main thing it would do is harass the AI more, as there would be more religions running about. Due to the way conversion works (remember that adjacent provinces magically convert your people).

On the other hand since all religious buildings are demolished when taken over by a different religion, various areas would have their things demolished more often which is amusing since the AI seems to like wasting it's time building up top level religious buildings.

and on the other hand, talking about crusaders recruit,i think that crusaders states could have that not affect reputation system for can recruit all templars,hospitaller,teutonic units...is no logic that the main kingdom of Crusaders can not recruit them, since they were based mainly on religious orders

It's just an oversight (confirmed previously). The crusader states have some units that use the reputation-linked condition, but that faction has very effective units that are unrelated to that (eg: your knights of jerusalem, your templar sergeants and templar crossbowmen).

Templar crossbowmen are devastatingly powerful missile fighters, and the sergeants are a good heavy spear unit (your dismounted knights of jerusalem are even heavier but expensive of course).

[20ninescene]

I have another suggestion, to ask the EBII team permission to use their environments but with vanilla M2TW, 0AD and Roma Surrectum trees since their trees can't be used for any other mods, also we could replace the jungle climate by a semi-arid highland climate. What do you think?

[Lifthrasir]

And for Judaism, you can add them in the building tree. You don't need to create a new religion for them. The other point you seems missing j.a.luna is that Jews didn't convert anybody outside of their own community at that time (at least not in a noticeable manner). Agree to represent them as a possible "booster" for income as they use to be money lenders. They also had some quite high administrative positions in some Muslim factions. They were used to focuse people anger as well.
But why should they decrease/affect the religion conversion???

[20ninescene]

You could also see Jewish conversion as more Jewish childeren being born and Jews moving to new regions.

[j.a.luna]

Cause for represent a permanent different religious minority in your settlement, maybe they could have a 1 percent of decrease your own conversion bonus in your settlement if you built this buildings...so i also agree about make a new building tree for jews, important in the game and in your economy
i would make 3 upgrades buildings similar to italian trade centers(simulating italians colonies)
1.Jewish neighborhoods...with "booster" income for you(maybe +300,+500?) also increase trade income, but decrease public order,happiness and decrease 1% of your conversion bonus OR increase 1 percent of heretics people
2.Jewish community...+ 800 income, trade income...same penalties and decrease 2% conversion bonus
3.Jewish colony or suburb...1500 income,trade income...same penalties and decrease 3% conversion bonus, also you obtain 1 merchant more for your faction

this is a general idea for represent jews in the game without make a new religion and represent the importance that they had in kingdoms how bankers and good merchants and usurers...

so,you think good about this idea?

[Lifthrasir]

That sounds logical and reasonable

[j.a.luna]

That sounds logical and reasonable

Haha perfect! I am grateful to contribute to the sship cause

It is a general idea, so you can improve it, for example add 1 merchant for your faction in each building upgrade so you will obtain maximun 3 merchants in high levels(simulating the famous good jewish merchants) or other things that you think logic

[Deepstrike101]

You need to have a good reputation at least to be able to recruit these knights. I tend to agree that this feature needs to be re-worked/adjusted.

Armour upgrade will be included in the next release.

For any related modding question, check the Workshop, more specifically the Tutorials section

Ah, that explains it. I have a habit of executing Fatimid armies that invade my lands... I don't see why Templars and Hospitallers would have an issue with this, but I suppose this feature was aimed at European warfare.

Thank you for the quick response. I'm really loving this submod. The models are beautiful and (my favorite part) cavalry on cavalry charges actually work properly again (in SS 6.4 charging heavy cav into heavy cav from behind was glitched). I'm also liking how difficult it is to control my settlements.

Suggestions:

M2TW's combat system results in armies being willing to suffer egregious casualties before breaking. Even a victorious army facing an equal army suffers 15-60% casualties, whereas historically it would be no more than 10%. I added a custom trait, "Medieval," which halves the casualties a winning army suffers (half of casualties are recovered). This results in more realistic casualty rate for the army which wins.

A feature I would also really like to see is an AI script which forces an army that has suffered >25% casualties to withdraw (not route, but withdraw) from the field. I loved this in Third Age Total War's Divide and Conquer submod because it made it more realistic and made AI armies significantly harder to destroy permanently.

[hekk]

Really quite like this mod, and I'm terribly sorry to whine but I find the civil war usurper script in this mod is so damn infuriating and tedious. Forces me to make a new campaign after another. I'm guessing disabling this script is too complicated, so how do I kill the faction leader or anyone else with the usurper trait when they have almost no movement range?

[Deepstrike101]

hekk, you could try searching through the campaign script file for any references to "userper" (in Windows, use the control+F function in a text file). Then try to figure out which script lines can be removed. You may also have to remove the traits from the traits file. If you try this, make sure to make a back-up of your original. Unfortunately, this is not likely to be savegame compatible.

I'm not aware of any way other than battle to kill a usurper general. Maybe try giving him transferable ancillaries which improve his movement points (some of the stallions, for example).

I'm suffering from the same problem in my current campaign... the Fatimids exterminated most of my royal family. Then, the "heir" princess married and her consort is technically the rightful king. The guy who was king before the marriage is still the faction leader, and is now a "weak usurper." It caused an uprising in Antioch, which in turn annihilated my economy and disbanded most of my armies (crusader sergeants, religious order, and mercenary units) right as I was beginning a massed attack against Egypt. The entire invasion collapsed before it had a chance to begin and I had to go take Antioch instead. The usurper is still around, fighting suicidal battles against the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia, and inevitably crushing the enemy despite all odds. Most of the kingdom is trying to make-do without him while he leads his tiny force of loyal bodyguards and mercenaries all around Anatolia.

[Deepstrike101]

Hey, sorry to bother you guys again, but I've got another few questions.

I have conquered the three northern settlements of Egypt, but the Egyptians "revolt" every other turn and spawn a couple of full stacks of Fatimid units in the desert. The Fatimids are "destroyed" the following turn because they have no settlements of their own. Their stacks become rebels. Not only is this annoying because I cannot keep dealing with infinite stacks of elites spawning for no reason, but I suspect every time they come back, it counts as me declaring war on them, and my reputation is slowly dropping from this. Just a suspicion. Is there any in-game way to suppress these rebellions or do I need to turn to modding?

What exactly is the requirement for me to be able to build the Teutonic Major Chapter House as the Crusader States? I've built the minor one and am waiting to recruit my first foot ritterbruders. The major chapter houses also seem to conflict with one another's recruitment. Is this normal?

Finally, my kingdom has had a long succession of usurpers. Needless to say, this is rather crippling. Will the game ever recognize a legitimate heir again, or will there never again be a rightful heir?

EDIT: As far as I am aware, the usurper feature appears to be permanently broken. Once a usurper is established, there is no way to fix the line of succession, and your empire is royally ed. Your generals' loyalty decreases, there is risk of random rebellion and unrest in settlements, and generals' movement points are reduced so much that I saw snails passing my characters on the campaign map. Right now my faction heir is going to take two decades to march from Egypt to Jerusalem- a journey which should take less than a year.

I really hope someone fixes this.

[Lifthrasir]

I honestly don't know how this works as it was implemented by a former developer of the mod. You'll have to be patient and keep your fingers crossed for the hope we find a solution

[j.a.luna]

I honestly don't know how this works as it was implemented by a former developer of the mod. You'll have to be patient and keep your fingers crossed for the hope we find a solution

No is a easy way implemented the submod next heir for sship? If you have problems with your heir,only put this ancillaire and it is ok...but we hope a better solution, maybe the master of the traits(Jurand)can say us something about this...

[Jurand of Cracow]

I honestly don't know how this works as it was implemented by a former developer of the mod. You'll have to be patient and keep your fingers crossed for the hope we find a solution

The problem with all ingenious scripts and mechanisms is such that they are usually not documented – both on the results for the players (what should I do) as well as the technical solutions (scripts in different files). Therefore if a modder/scripter goes away from modding, the knowledge disappears. If the system is simple, one can decipher it (eg the „Stripped” traits for the generals who are stripped of the provincial title – after analyzing a few triggers it’s easy get orientation). However, for the more intricate solutions, one need a lot of time to discover what’s going on.

On the Usurper system: I’ve spent some time on this in the past but got a sketchy understanding. If somebody would analyze the pertinent part of the ECDT and write a guide, it’d help everybody. I might have a go on it in the future but I’m absolutely don’t know when. However, I think it’s an important mechanism with much potential and perhaps in future I’d delve into it.
EDIT: I've just checked and it's a very very long part of the EDCT, indeed some should become an expert on this to make any changes.

Finally, my kingdom has had a long succession of usurpers. Needless to say, this is rather crippling. Will the game ever recognize a legitimate heir again, or will there never again be a rightful heir?
EDIT: As far as I am aware, the usurper feature appears to be permanently broken. Once a usurper is established, there is no way to fix the line of succession

I don't think so. As far as I remember there're triggers in EDCT which make the things change. From my game experience - I had one very bad king and I struggled for 20 years with him, making no progress in the kingdom. This was a challenge, but I managed to get back on the tracks.

No is a easy way implemented the submod next heir for sship? If you have problems with your heir,only put this ancillaire and it is ok...but we hope a better solution, maybe the master of the traits(Jurand)can say us something about this...

Never dealt witht the next heir, and I' unlikely to deal with it. However, given that I'm modding traits related also to Authority, it may happen I'd get interest.

Ah, that explains it. I have a habit of executing Fatimid armies that invade my lands... I don't see why Templars and Hospitallers would have an issue with this, but I suppose this feature was aimed at European warfare.

I wouldn’t agree that killing the Muslims by the crusaders should not diminish reputation. The 20-century mass slaughter was not really employed in the Middle Ages. Not only because of the attitudes of the people but especially of the pecuniary reasons: living people were worth something as slaves or – if from a rich family – as source of ransom. In practice the simple weak peasants were often freed after the battle while knights/nobles/soldiers were kept in custody or sold into slavery. All in all – I do think that killing any prisoners should diminish reputation of any faction.

[MWY]

@Jurand:I actually went through this a while ago because it was terribly bugged. I think I fixed most of it. It took some time though. I created an excel sheet to help me but it is still far from perfect. I agree that somebody should write a guide. I don't have time for that right now though.

@Deepstrike: Obviously that shouldnt happen. Since it's in the campaign_script, you cant really fix that though. Best thing you can do is go to the EDB and give a building in cairo law bonus. Without a revolt, those stacks shouldnt spawn.

I don't know when I fixed it, but in the current beta there is a script turning the usurper and all his sons to legit leaders and heirs after a certain amount of time.

[jdofo]

@ Deepstrike101: The only way I found out to recover the royal blood line was to kill the sons of the usurper, including the heir usurper, by sending them to fight against rebels in minority. Thus, the next heir is a legitimate one again.
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By the way, can the civil war be won by the revolting faction/contrary to the one on the seat of the power, independently of being legitimate or illegitimate? I have never seen it, the former leader always prevails...

Thanks in advance!

[Deepstrike101]

The Egypt issue was fixed after I conquered south Egypt too. I believe that the script checked if any of Egypt's cities were in independent hands and, if so, it would spawn an army. Now that they are all under my control, no more armies are spawning.

I spent an hour yesterday trying to mod the export traits file, attempting to figure out the usurper situation. I think I have it figured out for the most part. It would appear that there is a mechanism to get the faction back on track, but it is necessary for a usurper to have extreme dread (7+) before he becomes the faction leader, which will make him a very strong usurper. If he is strong enough, he can "found" a new dynasty which will be considered legitimate again.

My biggest gripe with the current script is that the current "usurper" is in fact the rightful ruler. Whoever wrote that script ironically did not seem to anticipate the rightful ruler taking the throne back from a usurper. If I have the time, I might script a fix for this loophole in a couple of weeks.

@jdofo, I tried to do this... except the current usurper's son's movement points... have dropped to zero. He is completely immobile. I even tried erasing the movement penalties associated with the usurper traits, but it hasn't had any effect. I think that the negative movement penalty is permanently associated with the trait once a character receives that trait. I might temporarily add a trigger which disables that trait and add it back a turn later to see if this solves the problem.

@Jurand, Massacres should certainly decrease global reputation. I just think that it may be better if the religious order recruitment is decided by the faction's relationship with the Papacy instead of global standing. After all, Templars and Hospitallers answered to the pope. The crusaders razed Jerusalem at the conclusion of the first crusade, but that didn't dissuade the Templars and Hospitallers from appearing. The pope does not mind war against Muslim factions (in fact he likes it) but does look down on Europe-Europe warfare. This would discourage the player from warring with other Catholic factions if they want to have access to religious orders, while not screwing them over for crusading. I looked in the scripts, even occupying a city significantly impacts reputation. Basically, even if I wage completely honorable crusades and ransom and occupy only, eventually the religious orders will no longer be recruit-able, just because my crusades conquered new lands or retook old ones.

On that last point, I may create a SSHIP submod which reorients the religious order recruitment to depend on relations with the Papacy instead of on global reputation.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Tit is necessary for a usurper to have extreme dread (7+) before he becomes the faction leader, which will make him a very strong usurper. If he is strong enough, he can "found" a new dynasty which will be considered legitimate again.

Yeah, it's also what I have in my notes - that only very high dread leads to getting rid of the usurper trait. As far as I remember also after the death the new leader will be (or may be) without the usurper trait.

My biggest gripe with the current script is that the current "usurper" is in fact the rightful ruler. Whoever wrote that script ironically did not seem to anticipate the rightful ruler taking the throne back from a usurper. If I have the time, I might script a fix for this loophole in a couple of weeks.

As I said: if you'd make a clear analysis of the system (and possibly provide solutions), this would be a boon for everybody.

@jdofo, I tried to do this... except the current usurper's son's movement points... have dropped to zero. He is completely immobile. I even tried erasing the movement penalties associated with the usurper traits, but it hasn't had any effect. I think that the negative movement penalty is permanently associated with the trait once a character receives that trait. I might temporarily add a trigger which disables that trait and add it back a turn later to see if this solves the problem.

This is not surprising: once a trait adds attributes / point(s) of other traits to a general, this is stored in the information for this general. If you erase the movement penalties in the EDCT (I don't think we've got access to the storage of a particular general) this will concern only the generals who acquire this trait afterwards - it has no effect on the generals who already posses this trait. Even worse - when a trait changes level, the current definition of this level is being subtracted and a new added. So if 1) they got the movement penalty (assume -18), 2) you've erased that -18 in the EDCT, 3) they change the level of the trait (going up or down) -- then the general will still stay immobile: the "-18" was added but not removed. An additional trait will do the job, though. The penalty can (perhaps) be also removed by the console command, but I've never messed with it.

@Jurand, Massacres should certainly decrease global reputation. I just think that it may be better if the religious order recruitment is decided by the faction's relationship with the Papacy instead of global standing. After all, Templars and Hospitallers answered to the pope. The crusaders razed Jerusalem at the conclusion of the first crusade, but that didn't dissuade the Templars and Hospitallers from appearing. The pope does not mind war against Muslim factions (in fact he likes it) but does look down on Europe-Europe warfare. This would discourage the player from warring with other Catholic factions if they want to have access to religious orders, while not screwing them over for crusading. I looked in the scripts, even occupying a city significantly impacts reputation. Basically, even if I wage completely honorable crusades and ransom and occupy only, eventually the religious orders will no longer be recruit-able, just because my crusades conquered new lands or retook old ones.

This sounds reasonable. As I witness with the other traits, during years of modding SS/SSHIP there're modders who didn't discerened many the effects of their changes, concentrating just on one effect they wanted to achieve. In the extreeme cases they mixed up such simple things as levels of a trait and number of points... So have a go and analyse possibly all the situations that may arise.