SSHIP - General Discussion

[j.a.luna]

Sship fans Modding Awards has started!!!
For me SSHIP MOD is the best!

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...8#post15987228

[Nemesis2345]

Hello Everyone,
Long time lurker, first time poster.
First of all, thank you JoC and team for all your hard work and dedication, it is truly appreciated. I have been playing TW since my friend lent me his new game "Shogun" back at the turn of millennium. By far, this mod is the most enjoyable form of Total War I've come across. At the end of the day, SSHIP is like a comfort food; something that soothes the soul after a long day of work. Thank you all once again!
I am currently completing a Portuguese campaign using 0.97 + Patch E. I also implemented Belovese's redundant script fix from January 4, 2021. I am at over 500 turns and have encountered an interesting phenomenon. For some reason, my previous generation of family members all decided to become unfaithful at the same time. All my new male family members that come of age are illegitimate. I thought this was interesting. I was wondering what actions promote the appearance of illegitimate children? Any information would be welcome.
Thank you again!
All the best, DoL

Jurand would definetely be interested in your 500 turn save file .Damn thats alot of playtime , i think i only reached once over 500 turns and that was on 0.9.3 years ago ! Upload the save file if you will , it might offer info for the guys!

[DavidofLaSalle]

Nemesis:
Yes, this is by far my longest game ever as well. The most I usually do is complete the campaign. This time I had the added motivation that I wanted to finally get my king crowned. This has been due to a combination of being excommunicated because I shared borders with the Papacy and they were aggressive, me not properly limiting my family tree enough to establish and proper royal line, and the appearance of kings and princes that were either illegitimate children or unfit for office for some reason or another. With all that, I still haven't crowned anyone and that has me motivated to continue. At this rate, I may end up painting the map like Alavaria!
The experience with the Papacy was really interesting in this game, specifically that they were a major pain in my side for so long and I focused on establishing my empire enough so that my "grand finale" for the Long Campaign was to sweep through their empire and then relocate them to the Balearic Islands so that they wouldn't bother anyone anymore. Their last settlement that fell to me gave me victory for the Long Campaign, which I thought was very poetic haha
And sure, I would be happy to upload the save file. What is the best way of going about that?

[DavidofLaSalle]

Nemesis:
It's my longest game ever, to be honest. I had added motivation to continue because I still haven't managed to crown a king yet. Combination of excommunications at the wrong time early on, a bit of family tree mis-management, and kings and heirs either being illegitimate or unfit in some way. At this rate, I may end up painting the map!
And I would be happy to upload it, if it will be helpful. What is the best way to do that?

[Nemesis2345]

Nemesis:
It's my longest game ever, to be honest. I had added motivation to continue because I still haven't managed to crown a king yet. Combination of excommunications at the wrong time early on, a bit of family tree mis-management, and kings and heirs either being illegitimate or unfit in some way. At this rate, I may end up painting the map!
And I would be happy to upload it, if it will be helpful. What is the best way to do that?

https://easyupload.io/ here, use this .

Indeed, crowns are a still a pain sadly , maybe some factions should already have a king crowned when u start the game , or idk , i hope jurand tweaks this in the future.

[Belovèse]

As for my taste crown are not that hard to get, but I never adopt new family member and don't allow any marriage outside my FL direct familly, so the line is always clean.

[Jurand of Cracow]

NI had added motivation to continue because I still haven't managed to crown a king yet. Combination of excommunications at the wrong time early on, a bit of family tree mis-management, and kings and heirs either being illegitimate or unfit in some way. At this rate, I may end up painting the map!

This is why I've introduced that crown mechanism into the mod: to give the player motivation.

@David, upload that .sav, I'm pretty interested.

[DavidofLaSalle]

First off, apologies for the double-post. I was not sure if my initial post had been successful.

Belovèse: I need to take your recommendations to heart. I already avoid adoptions, but I have been allowing a few too many marriages outside the main family line.

Either way, this rendition has been excellent. The added complexity to the family tree with the offices and the crowns is great.

Here is the link to my latest save file: https://easyupload.io/6nkxdr

Let me know if there are any issues.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Belovèse: I need to take your recommendations to heart. I already avoid adoptions, but I have been allowing a few too many marriages outside the main family line.
Either way, this rendition has been excellent. The added complexity to the family tree with the offices and the crowns is great.

Here is the link to my latest save file: https://easyupload.io/6nkxdr
Let me know if there are any issues.

Thanks, @David! I'll have a look.

Concerning the family trees, there's rather extensive information in the pop-out windows:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

{INFO_FAMILY_TREE_BODY}\n\nManagement of your ruling family is an important part of the game (just as it was an important part of medieval politics and statecraft). \n\nFirst and foremost, you must ensure that not all members of your family die; if this happens, then you have lost your campaign. You can keep your family alive by marrying off your princesses (a new general will be added to the family tree, unless your royal princess marries another faction's general), marrying off your family members who are likely to have children, or adopting generals (they are periodically offered by the game engine). Bear in mind that recruited generals (a unit "Bodyguard") and Man of the Hour generals do not show up in the family tree, and thus do not count towards the preservation of your ruling family. Such generals are also likely to have inferior traits than those born in the family.{INFO_FAMILY_TREE_TITLE}The Family Tree
{INFO_FAMILY_BLOODLINES_AND_FAMILY_TREE_BODY}\n\nAt campaign start, each faction has its own "bloodline". This provides quite a few benefits. The bloodline is passed on from generation to generation, provided there are offspring to keep it going (if your bloodline happens to die away, do not despair; it will be resurrected). Also, women pass on the bloodline. \n\nOne of the goals of family tree management is to keep the bloodline of the ruling family alive. The player is able to manage the family tree by (not) accepting marriages and adoptions. It should be noted though that each couple may produce a maximum of 4 children. So, if you allow a character to marry, you are de facto agreeing to potentially 4 more members for your family. These new family members may or may not be part of your bloodline (this depends on the player's choices). If you want to keep your starting bloodline in your game, you should not: 1. allow marriages between generals and ladies who both are without a bloodline, 2. adopt generals offered (they usually don't have bloodlines), 3. recruit generals in the settlements. The general goal of the family-tree-management should be to keep the number of characters lower than the number of provinces you own and to have (potentially) child-bearing characters with bloodlines which you want to keep alive.
{INFO_FAMILY_BLOODLINES_AND_FAMILY_TREE_TITLE}Royal Bloodlines and the Family Tree
{INFO_FAMILY_MARRIAGE_DECISION_BODY}When considering whether or not to allow a general to marry, there are a number of factors worth considering. First, it is important to always remember that the traits of a father are often passed to his sons, so good generals are more likely to provide your realm with good future generations (and bad generals with bad ones). Aside from this, considerations of bloodline are also worth bearing in mind, as it may be crucial to first marry off generals of royal blood to ensure that they sire many potential heirs to your realm. \n\nA separate but equally important consideration is the number of generals, princesses, and children already in your faction's family tree, and the number of provinces you currently hold; the game's engine aims to equalize the two numbers, meaning some "fertile" individuals may simply be incapable of siring new children for your line until some other characters have passed away. To control this number yourself, it may sometimes be worthwhile to keep a general unmarried for a time (to prevent him having children), as this will keep the number of characters lower, thus allowing your faction's leader or heir to sire sons and daughters of his own. \n\nA final point worth mentioning is that the game's engine sometimes "fixates" on one character, offering marriage proposals turn after turn, despite you consistently declining. This is unfortunately a hardcoded aspect of the Medieval II engine, and you will either have to keep declining the offers (with the knowledge that this will leave you with fewer family members for a time), or accept in order to gain some peace and quiet. After all, no one ever said it was easy to rule a realm, and mild headaches are to be expected from time to time.
{INFO_FAMILY_MARRIAGE_DECISION_TITLE}When to Bless a Marriage
{INFO_FAMILY_NUMBER_OF_CHARACTERS_BODY}As the keeper of your realm, your duties are not just to manage a military and economy, but also to manage people. Most importantly, you must manage a royal line, as well as many generals who fight for that line, and might even have ambitions to take over that line. \n\nIn the Medieval 2 engine there are hardcoded limitations on the number of family members and generals any faction can have. In particular, the game will give adoption opportunities and slowly add children and spouses until the number of generals, princesses, and children in your faction is roughly equal to the number of provinces you currently control (with a minor deviation above or below this threshold). Given this, if the number of generals and other family members in your faction exceeds the number of provinces you hold, then you will not receive marriage or adoption requests, and your current generals will not sire children. Moreover, this will be the case regardless of the fertility of your generals or princesses (once at the limit, fertility makes no difference). Thus, you will need to either take more provinces or wait until some of your generals die before you can gain any new family members. This point is worth keeping in mind when you are deciding whether or not to allow a general to marry, especially if you have a young unmarried heir; the newly-married general may sire a number of children, making it impossible for the faction heir to sire any of his own (until some other generals have died).
{INFO_FAMILY_NUMBER_OF_CHARACTERS_TITLE}Royal Family and Generals

[j.a.luna]

in my cuman campaign I have realized that the place of coronation is in the Sarukan castle, I would need a larger temple, is it possible from a castle or would I have to transform it into a city?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Here is the link to my latest save file: https://easyupload.io/6nkxdr.

Guys, this is really something. Turn 545, year 1404. It's really worth seeing.

@David - make a report how it was like playing Portugal for such a long time and creating such a nice empire. Have a look how have we done it in the past - eg Alavaria or me. Really worth it!

I instantly see that I can learn from this file. Eg. Plaza del Toro in Reims - perhaps not the most historical thing but maybe it's right... Let's think about it.
Or the pervasiveness of the 24-buildings problem (in almost all cities there's this problem).
Or the money - it is still scarce, just 30k budget surplus.

[DavidofLaSalle]

@Jurand Thanks! I would be happy to provide my experience. I will look over your's and Alavaria's examples and see what I can do.

And I'm glad my save was helpful!

To further your comments:

I agree that a bull ring in Northern France is rather unlikely, historically speaking, but at the same time there would also be a migration of people and ideas within such an empire, so it may be possible to see such a thing. Nevertheless, I'm sure whatever decision you and the team make will be correct and work well.

To add more information about the state of the economy: I had every settlement below Metropolis/Citadel at "Low Taxation," I destroyed/did not build Mines in most settlements because of the negative health effects which would limit population growth, and the majority of settlements did not have governors. I also might have exterminated a few too many settlements along the way... I did manage to accumulate around 700,000 money at one point around Turn 450 or so. I lost almost all of it over the next 50-100 turns as I established more armies and expanded. I also only recently moved my capital to Rome (it had previously been Toledo). Leaving the capital in Toledo for as long as I did likely made me need larger than necessary garrison armies in many of my settlements.

[Steward Denethor II]

Hey this is a minor point, but Stainless Steel changed the minimum assassin chance from 5% to 10%. In my opinion this is a considerable mistake. A very bad assassin would absolutely not have a 10% chance of murdering a security minded King who is also a great warrior; I would not give him a 1% chance, or even 0.01%. Can you change the Assassin minimum chance to 0%, or maybe 1%? Right now if the AI spams enough assassins your general will eventually die, and that is just not fun or realistic.

(Only note, I'm not sure 0% chance to kill is actually 0%. However when I made that change I noticed my badass paranoid King was much safer.)

Apparently Fidel Castro survived 600 assassination attempts, although I suspect that was exaggerated state propaganda.

On a similar note, maybe the maximum chance for spies could be made 100%?

[Nemesis2345]

Hey this is a minor point, but Stainless Steel changed the minimum assassin chance from 5% to 10%. In my opinion this is a considerable mistake. A very bad assassin would absolutely not have a 10% chance of murdering a security minded King who is also a great warrior; I would not give him a 1% chance, or even 0.01%. Can you change the Assassin minimum chance to 0%, or maybe 1%? Right now if the AI spams enough assassins your general will eventually die, and that is just not fun or realistic.

(Only note, I'm not sure 0% chance to kill is actually 0%. However when I made that change I noticed my badass paranoid King was much safer.)

Might work , but iirc in 0.9.8 they changed the limit of assasins so you cant train many of them , i think this is a good nerf and out-weighs the chance. Tho i wouldnt mind lowering it to 5% since even wih 10% its alot if they spam it enough. However the strategy would be for your own assasins to counter the enemy assasins.

Apparently Fidel Castro survived 600 assassination attempts, although I suspect that was exaggerated state propaganda.

On a similar note, maybe the maximum chance for spies could be made 100%?

Might work , but iirc in 0.9.8 they changed the limit of assasins so you cant train many of them , i think this is a good nerf and out-weighs the chance. Tho i wouldnt mind lowering it to 5% since even wih 10% its alot if they spam it enough. However the strategy would be for your own assasins to counter the enemy assasins.

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Jurand Thanks! I would be happy to provide my experience. I will look over your's and Alavaria's examples and see what I can do.

I agree that a bull ring in Northern France is rather unlikely, historically speaking, but at the same time there would also be a migration of people and ideas within such an empire, so it may be possible to see such a thing. Nevertheless, I'm sure whatever decision you and the team make will be correct and work well.

To add more information about the state of the economy: I had every settlement below Metropolis/Citadel at "Low Taxation," I destroyed/did not build Mines in most settlements because of the negative health effects which would limit population growth, and the majority of settlements did not have governors. I also might have exterminated a few too many settlements along the way... I did manage to accumulate around 700,000 money at one point around Turn 450 or so. I lost almost all of it over the next 50-100 turns as I established more armies and expanded. I also only recently moved my capital to Rome (it had previously been Toledo). Leaving the capital in Toledo for as long as I did likely made me need larger than necessary garrison armies in many of my settlements.

Depending on your literary devotion: Alavaria plays mods and writes storie, while in my reports I concentrate on description of diplomacy and on the numbers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bull ring - yes, it depends on the interpretation how the Iberian culture would spread over the conquered lands, but also on the game mechanics (how many buildings could you have etc.)

Mines - I think they'll have no growth penalty given that actually the mechanism has always been otherwise: mines would attract immigration and increase population.

Accumulation of money - yeah, this is a hack for the game, I'm doing it as well. It was noticed and eg. Thrones of Britania had dealt with it: a faction fervour mechanism was introduced. It is not historical for the Middle Ages (at least not in such a scale ;-) and I'll do some scripting to dissuade the player from doing it.

Hey this is a minor point, but Stainless Steel changed the minimum assassin chance from 5% to 10%. In my opinion this is a considerable mistake. A very bad assassin would absolutely not have a 10% chance of murdering a security minded King who is also a great warrior; I would not give him a 1% chance, or even 0.01%. Can you change the Assassin minimum chance to 0%, or maybe 1%? Right now if the AI spams enough assassins your general will eventually die, and that is just not fun or realistic.

I've got no idea what this number means. I don't think it's a simple chance, it's rather a coefficient. I don't know formula. All in all, I wouldn't touch this part without serious study (maybe it was made by somebody 10 years ago, but this should be explored).

[kostic]

There are mods where I didn't use assassins because their chances of success were so low.


With the decrease in the number of assassins in the latest version of SSHIP, and over a relatively short period of campaign, I get out of business against them by associating my generals with a spy (no assassination when the spy remains at general side).
Then I always train at least one assassin who will spot those of the enemy and eradicate them if they are too threatening.


For me, the current balance suits me.

@DavidofLaSalle : I'm really impressed !!!
545 towers and the beginning of the 15th century !!! Congratulations !!! I will test your campaign because I am curious to see what our history can look like in enlarged Europe with Portugal dominating ...

[Konstantinos XII Rhomaios]

Hey guys, I love this mod and the community around it, I have a quick suggestion let me know what you think.

Would it be possible to include the resurgent factions with the corresponding bloodline? I know it's not 100% accurate but one of my favorite things to do in the game is literally marry a princess from every faction to gain that bloodline.

Anyway, thanks for hearing me out, keep up the good work!

[Waluk]

Just a couple of small things I noticed playing latest january 2021 things in SSHIP, not really bugs, but perhaps worth asking. The diplomats of Leon & Castille all have muslim looks and names, intentional? A small typo when Portuguese ruler dies reads Orince, instead of Prince. Played with Novgorod and conquered Kolyvan and Turku, who were both at village level I believe. There was nothing to be built there, I could only wait for them to upgrade, which in case of Kolyvan happened after 100 to 200 turns, but Turku wouldn't upgrade even after turn 250. I know this places weren't exactly the most populated, is this intentional? A lot of the times playing SSHIP, from version 092 to latest 098, I would often find an impassible crash around turns 240 to 260, is there a certain event or something around that time that could cause issues? Latest version does seem a bit less crash happy, at least as of now I haven't had any crashes that would prevent me to move ahead. Great job guys, if it weren't for modders I wouldn't have played Medieval 2 for 15 years

[Jurand of Cracow]

Just a couple of small things I noticed playing latest january 2021 things in SSHIP, not really bugs, but perhaps worth asking. The diplomats of Leon & Castille all have muslim looks and names, intentional? A small typo when Portuguese ruler dies reads Orince, instead of Prince. Played with Novgorod and conquered Kolyvan and Turku, who were both at village level I believe. There was nothing to be built there, I could only wait for them to upgrade, which in case of Kolyvan happened after 100 to 200 turns, but Turku wouldn't upgrade even after turn 250. I know this places weren't exactly the most populated, is this intentional? A lot of the times playing SSHIP, from version 092 to latest 098, I would often find an impassible crash around turns 240 to 260, is there a certain event or something around that time that could cause issues? Latest version does seem a bit less crash happy, at least as of now I haven't had any crashes that would prevent me to move ahead. Great job guys, if it weren't for modders I wouldn't have played Medieval 2 for 15 years

* diplomats - no idea if it's possible, the list of the names looks ok. Could you post a pic?
* death - thanks, fixed.
* deadly crash 240-260 - may be related to the Mongols? Not yet fixed the Mongols yet, but I'll do it once I've got some time. However, as @DavidOfLaSalle has shown, it doesn't prevent from moving to turn 545 :-)
* Turku and Kolyvan - yes, this is intentional. They should stay small for a long time. However, if you send a governor giving +growth, you can upgrade them and then build buidings prompting growth.

{INFO_SETTLEMENT_GROWTH_REMINDER_BODY}\nAt the start of the campaign, there are very few settlements with positive population growth (and a few suffer negative growth unless you set their taxes to low). This does not mean that such settlements cannot grow, but rather that you need to invest money into infrastructure and assign a good governor if you want to establish any stable growth. \n\nThe sources of population growth are as follows: \n* A province's innate fertility level (+0.5% to +3%) \n* Farms (every +1 point to farming translates to +0.5% growth) \n* Buildings providing Health (+0.5% growth per +1 point to Health) \n* Buildings directly providing Growth (the amount of growth provided is described on their info cards) \n* Buildings providing Happiness (+0.25% growth per +1 point to Happiness) \n* Trade with other provinces (+0.5% to +3% growth) \n * The General governing the settlement (1 Chivalry point provides +0.5% or +1% growth (up to +6.5% growth for a 10 Chivalry general; Dread has no impact) \n\nNote that certain factors can also greatly hinder growth. The main source of growth reduction is Squalor, and so any traits or buildings which reduce Squalor effectively increase growth. Changing the tax rate is also an easy and effective way to rapidly alter the growth rate of a settlement, but this is generally not the most effective long-term solution for controlling growth (utlilizing building trees provides more stable and socially acceptable growth). Another source of growth reduction is plagues, which have a detrimental effect on settlement growth. As a final point of clarification, buildings providing Law or reducing unrest do not have any impact on population growth.
{INFO_SETTLEMENT_GROWTH_REMINDER_TITLE}Population Growth (Reminder)

[DavidofLaSalle]

@Jurand That's really interesting about the mines! I thought that the negative health effects would outweigh any growth from trade. Thank you for clarifying that.

@kostic Thank you! I hope you find it interesting.

As for the diplomats, I noticed a Moorish diplomat belonging to Leon & Castille or Aragon in my Portugal run through. I assumed that he had been bribed and joined them that way.