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Thread: [Preview] Campaign Map

  1. #81
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Looking throught the actual map, I'm not convinced about the Arsanias river
    It doesn't look to be a major one and I'm not sure that there's enough space to put it on the map anyway.
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  2. #82
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    As I've also mentioned: have a look at the settlements' levels of Georgia. I think it's not historical if you compare them to the other parts of the world.
    - Kutaisi should be a city and have a level of town/large town.
    - Tbilisi - castle is ok, but should be Castle (or even Wodden Castle), not Citadel. Some buildings should also be downgraded (eg Farms) as this region was definitely not so developed in comparison to other provices (eg. Egypt or Spain - this is at their levels!).
    - Ani - shoud be a City, not Large City (also for the gameplay - to make the player upgrading it and to provide more money).
    I'm also a concerned of both Baku and Derbent having such high levels of development (Large City and City) - just compare it to the other places the map: Large Cities are Alexandria or Cordoba, the greatest cities of those times! And Koeln is Minor City! So I'd downgrade both cities to the Town levels.

    On the margin: I don't understand the unit Khevsur Heavy Swordsmen. Khevsuretia is a small, montanious region in Georgia (today it's problaby a few thousands inhabitants) and I wonder if in the past it was possbile to recruit so many soldiers. I might be wrong though - maybe the definition of the region was different in the Middle Ages? I'm pretty convinced, however, that this unit should not be available outside Kartli (it's now available also in Kutaissi) unless we change the name and description (eg. to Georgian Highlanders?). Anyway, I think a historian on Georgia should have a voice (if he would be around).

    From the point of view of the gamplay I think those changes wouldn't make Georgia mission impossible but would make difficult indeed.

    I'll probably provide some more insights during the next two months, after the trip and perhaps after reading a book on the Georgian city and the recent history of Georgia.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 19, 2017 at 03:27 AM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Why wouldnt it be historical? Georgia had highly advanced military units in great numbers (Around estimated 40.000 against the seljuks, with atleast 5.000 heavy cavalry). How would you be able to sustain such numbers if not for atleast some developed cities? They singlehandedly were able to fend of the seljuks and their monaspa units were developed heavily armored and trained cavalry. Also, Tbilisi was instantly made the capital after georgians captured it. So it probably was bigger and/or more prestigious than kutaissi.
    Ani recordedly had more than 100.000 inhabitants at 1045. The city declined since then, but I doubt that it was that much.

    By the way, Alexandria and Cordoba were not the greatest cities of those times. Constantinople, Cairo, Merv, Sevilla and Marrakesh were. Sources for this are found on wikipedia (f.e. Chandler as well as others) as well as here:
    http://openhistory.net/

    Again, I did my research for each and every single settlement in SSHIP. If you have sources and if you have reasonable arguments why we should adjust numbers or change settlements feel free to present them. Right now, I dont see any. It's just "this settlement should be smaller because to me it feels wrong". And that misrepresents the accuracy of SSHIP and the amount of effort I put into the research. I'll look forwards to some more insights after your trip and you readings though.

    I think the georgian units are mainly adopted in a way from BC. I don't know who ported them over and how, so I can't say anything about that.

  4. #84
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Units were implemented from BC before my time by Ravenant (former developer and if my memory is not too bad). The Georgian roster can be re-worked but not in a short time period.
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  5. #85
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Well, it'll take time to respond to this entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Why wouldnt it be historical? Georgia had highly advanced military units in great numbers (Around estimated 40.000 against the seljuks, with atleast 5.000 heavy cavalry). How would you be able to sustain such numbers if not for atleast some developed cities? They singlehandedly were able to fend of the seljuks and their monaspa units were developed heavily armored and trained cavalry. Also, Tbilisi was instantly made the capital after georgians captured it. So it probably was bigger and/or more prestigious than kutaissi.
    I absolutely agree on the quality of the monaspa soldiers, both cavalry and infantry.
    I don't agree that they "They singlehandedly were able to fend of the seljuks" - well, the Seljuks had to desintegrate politically first and then some of their beys were beaten by the Georgians.
    I agree that Tbilisi was more prestigious and bigger than Kutaisi - this was why the Muslims lived here: this was a big and rich city.
    I agreee with the numbers as passed to us from the sources on the Davit's army. The question is what do they mean. I think the overall Georgian forces were of this magnitute (with or without the supporting Alans and other allies from Caucasus?). In a military expedition it was, however, unlikely to use the whole force. The described in the sources size of 60 thousands attacking Tbilisi (or was it another campaign?) are not to be trusted. This is simply because of the logistical problems. The armies of middle ages vere much, much smaller. It was simply not possible to feed the people and the beasts. The lengthy discussion on this subject (see John France in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare, 2010)) states that in the early Middle Ages the average campaining army in Europe was 6-8 thousands people, the biggests up to 12 thousands. In the East they might have been bigger but rather for the large empires. Later as the technology progressed they became bigger in Europe as well, but not so much. The Ankara or Tannenberg battles of the 15th century were the biggest with armies 20-30 thousands on one side (perhaps there're more such battles to be recalled). The First Crusade was apparently the marvellous exception in this history, with 40-60 thousands militants on the campaign. This was the biggest achievement of the European knight power.
    And now take Georgia - a land on the outskirts of the civilizations (the very title of the Rayfield book is "Edge of Empires"), in the deep valleys of Caucasus and the Armenian Highlands, with occassional access to the sea - but this was also "edge" of the seas, not the vibrant center. Problems with transport and food must have been enormous.
    So the numbers of the armies in our sources are somehow irrelevant to my proposals of tweaking the sizes of the Georgian provinces. My point is that Georiga, Armenia and Albania were much weaker on the economy than the current sizes of the settlements indicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Ani recordedly had more than 100.000 inhabitants at 1045. The city declined since then, but I doubt that it was that much.
    By the way, Alexandria and Cordoba were not the greatest cities of those times. Constantinople, Cairo, Merv, Sevilla and Marrakesh were. Sources for this are found on wikipedia (f.e. Chandler as well as others) as well as here:
    http://openhistory.net/
    For the beginning I just attach what Colin McEvedy says about the Constantinople's population (the topographical descriptions are on the previous pages of the book):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just put it into the context of 100000 population of Ani.

    I know the figure of 50-100 k for Ani, but I haven't found where does it come from. The Wikipedia cites as a source a a book which cites as a source a paper from 1983 I have no access to. My experience is that at the end of the citation chain there's usually a few words in an old chronicle written by a monk (nobody else could write). And it was also usually the case that that monk would not have had any clue about a true number, nor would he care. If he would be an Ethiopian monk he would have written "641" by which he'd have meant "very, very many". In Armenia it'd have probably been hundred(s) of thousands to convey precisely the same. This was because the monks in their writings fixated over the biblical topoi and strived to make the history of the nation as much similar to the history of the "chosen nation" as they could. They simply thought in these terms. So, for instance, one should not believe the catastrophic situation the Armenians in the Middle Ages or terrible slaughters by the Arabs (unless they're corroborated in the Muslim sources, like the Nakhichivan massacre of 705). Neither he should trust the proud descriptions of the powerful armies and opulent cities of that time, drowning in milk and gold. This culture was simply very prone to exaggeration. The same concerns Georgians as the cultural influences were quite extensive.

    Furthermore, SSHIP starts after the century of economic crisis (see article here). As the author says "For Armenia, of course, the impacts of this crisis were long lasting and dramatic".

    So again: my point is that Georiga, Armenia and Albania were much weaker on the economy than the current sizes of the settlements indicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Sources for this are found on wikipedia (f.e. Chandler as well as others) as well as here: http://openhistory.net/
    I'll have a look into openhistory project to get my opinion on the reliability of this source and report in this thread.
    However, I don't know what is the "Chandler" source - can you tell me?
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 20, 2017 at 01:15 AM.
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  6. #86
    jurcek1987's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    I'd be interested in making a new Georgian roster if needed

  7. #87
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Looking throught the actual map, I'm not convinced about the Arsanias river
    It doesn't look to be a major one and I'm not sure that there's enough space to put it on the map anyway.
    While I'd call a 700-km river a major one , I admit there might be no space for it.
    What is essential, is the Arax river - the backbone of the Armenian lands .

    Quote Originally Posted by jurcek1987 View Post
    I'd be interested in making a new Georgian roster if needed
    Me, personally, I'd be very supportive to it, if only for this Khevsuretia guys. However, I haven't played Georgia in the SSHIP so I don't know if it's really needed. I can see what troops are available at the beginning (hmm, no Metsichovne units?), but I don't know what appears later.
    I think for the 1132 we do have much information about the Georgian army so it could be done.
    I'd also mention that the HURB the roster was "too heavy" to my mind, for instance with two heavy infantry units (Aznauri and Eristavi) playing the same tactical roles.

  8. #88
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    While I'd call a 700-km river a major one , I admit there might be no space for it.
    What is essential, is the Arax river - the backbone of the Armenian lands .
    If you look through most of the maps, the Arsanias river doesn't appear. That's why I said that it doesn't look as a major one

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Me, personally, I'd be very supportive to it, if only for this Khevsuretia guys. However, I haven't played Georgia in the SSHIP so I don't know if it's really needed. I can see what troops are available at the beginning (hmm, no Metsichovne units?), but I don't know what appears later.
    I think for the 1132 we do have much information about the Georgian army so it could be done.
    I'd also mention that the HURB the roster was "too heavy" to my mind, for instance with two heavy infantry units (Aznauri and Eristavi) playing the same tactical roles.
    I think that it would be best to create a specific thread for the Georgian roster rather to discuss about it here
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  9. #89

    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Thanks Jurand. That's something I can work with.

    City sizes comparison with authors:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ughout_history

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._note-Etext-79

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ies_in_history

    So together with various other sources I couldn't find anymore, the wikipages in german and english ofthe settlements and openhistory thats what i used to estimate settlement numbers. I admittedly didn't read the original sources, since it would have been even more time consuming than it already was for 200 settlements.

    About Constantinople:
    I think 30.000 would have been way too low. No one else I read of is claming such a low number. And in general, for SSHIP we have to find some kind of consensus between the most prominent estimations, especially when they cover most cities. Just so that atleast in comparison, it gives an accurate representation of europe and the mediterranean world. I can't make any statements about the grain and wheat supply and how accurate it is. But there has to be a reason most of the other historians estimated 100.000 to 250.000 for that time.

    About Ani:
    Yes, I know that most people exaggerated numbers, size and glory of of basically everything in the middle ages. I also dont doubt the decline of Ani. But the bynames "city of forty gates" and the "city of a thousand and one churches" also didn't come from a small settlement I think. That's why I gave them large walls and a population of 50.000, with a declining tendency. Maybe that could be lowered a bit further to around 30.000-35.000. What does the article you cited say? I can't download it without using facebook...


    About Georgia:
    My point here is, if they had that big of army, they needed to have the population and to field cavalry that trained and heavy suggests that they had atleast somewhat advanced settlements. Just because you're living on the edge of civilisation doesn't mean that you can only live in small towns. Also, there are apparently no doubts about the army sizes, atleast not on wiki. Even if they were exaggerated heavily, it would still be a remarkable number and beating the seljuks (even though not in their prime anymore) would have still been impressive. I'm referring to this battle:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Didgori

    See also this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Tbilisi

    Which kind of confirms a decline for Tbilisi (and also gives a population number for derbent), but I think that we should estimate a population boost since georgians recaptured it.

  10. #90
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Hi MWY,

    I think it'd be easiest for you just to buy the McEvedy book in German (you can buy it cheaper in English, just search the web). Have a look at ihs methodology (he's a combination of archeologist, medical doctor and demographer; he checks, for example, if it was possible for so many people to live in the space available in a city given the technologies available) and you'll see why I'm extremely reluctant to trust the figures from the medieval sources, not corroborated by the research of today. I don't claim he's perfect in his counting, but still the approach matters.

    A short review you may find here.

    In Wikipedia on Derbent: "According to Arab historians, Derbent, with population exceeding 50,000, was the largest city of the 9th century Caucasus." This is exactly the problem of all sources on those numbers: somewhere at the beginning there was an enthusiastic, ignorant author putting the figure to impress, to hail greatness of his nation, and to make his readers (who paid him) feel good. Then, after a few centuries, people put it into Wikipedia because it's a "contemporary source".

    My opinion on the figures put into the tables on Wikipedia: they're wild, wild fantasies. My favorite is Agrigento in 500 BC - 800.000 inhabitants. (based on the book published by the "Lulu Enterprises Incorporated." . Or Corinth at 100-700.000 on the 1 AD.

    Chandler provides more reasonable figures. I'm impressed to see that somebody finally admits that the legend of 1-milion Rome was not true and puts modest 450.000 (what is only two-times higher than reconed by McEvedy). However, there're still funny figures like Istambul at 660.000 in 1550 (well, where would they live? and in 1927 census there're 200.000 living in the entirely build-up city with multustorey buidings (plus 500.000 around but on the areas empty before modern times).

    I agree with you that something between 100.000 to 250.000 might have been possible for Constantinople but then - what do you think about 50.000 people in Ani or Derbent, somewhere at the end of the world, far from feritile plains or big rivers or just any hinterland known for decent agriculture. Where did the food come from? What did they do? Where did they live?

    Think about technologies - in the Middle Ages they were unable to construct any building as high as in the Roman times because the relevant masonry technologies were forgotten. Prof. Andrew Wilson claimsfor instance, that in Europe the masons learnt to produce concrete of the similar quality only in the 18th century. Think about the roads, about trade connections, about sanitation etc. etc. The Middle Ages were nowhere close to those numbers the authors put in their chronicles.

    The bottom line: sorry, I don't buy any of those figures if they don't look plausible.

    Similarly, I usually don't buy any figures on the battles if not researched thoroughly. The estimates for the Didgori battle are laughable on the Muslim side even after deflation proposed in the article (they'd starve to death before arriving to the battlefield - you need a good logistics for big armies, it's why the really big ones were made possible only by the French logistical savvy in the modern times, and finally by the railroad).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    John France in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Medieval Warfare, 2010 - I like the passage on the Milan siege and I think it should be applied to any reports on the number of combatants in a battle
    BTW, France mentions here the Battle of Leignitz where, according to his article, Mongol forces were 30.000 and German force 20.000. The battle actually was fought by the Silesian nobility (though every Pole and many German historians would say it was a Polish army since it was lead by the Piast dukes), but this is irrelevant for the purpose of my case here. What matters is that over the last two centuries extensive research was made and now the textbooks tell the figures of 10-20 thousands versus 7-10 thousands. Some historians claim it was a tiny battle that was made important only because the Silesian overlord from the Piast family was killed what prompted his historiographer to conjure up a dozen of thousands of additional troops just to make that death look serious. So it might be - and this passage is making his way into the textbooks in Poland as there're absolutely no sources of the higher numbers - that it was a few thousands of the Mongols (eg 7000) against 1-2 thousands on the Christian side.

    But this might irrelevant - the question is what would you like to convey in the figure in SSHIP? What to do with the areas which were organized differently than only around urban centres or had multiple urban centres, but smaller ones? (btw, this is the case of Georgia and Armenia - due to the "landscape fragmentation" they'd lived more in the countryside than Italian communities, traditionally concentrated in the cities. So I'm not so strict on giving cities more. But we need to be reasonble. Caucasus was not Egypt or Gaul where you can easily feed people. Too little rainfall, to weak soil (like only 15% territory around Lake Van was possibl to cultivate), too many problems with transport, much less possibilities for irrigations (fortunately the rivers Kura and Arax were there). So keep in the SSHIP Egypt and Mezopotamia feritile, rich and populous, but most of Caucaus, Persia hinterland, Ireland, Poland or Rusia sparsly populated. It's been done in the SSHIP by limiting the number of provinces in the far-away regions. It's good though sometimes not enouth for my taste (I'd vote for one province Derbent-Baku, but maybe for the gameplay purposes we need to have something for Georgians to conquer?). So the problem is rather that comparisons I've hinted at: Baku and Derbent being Large City and City while Alexandria and Cordoba are also Large Cities or Koeln a Minor City - this doesn't add up. It's why I propose to downgrade them. I really like how the SSHIP is conservative on the settlements in Poland - they're small as they should been (even if I'd still make Plock smaller). Civilization was far south, not in those forests .

    The openhistory - I'll comment on it once I have time to have a closer look. The first was not very favourable - the city of Poznan is said to have a few thousands inhabitants some 200 years before it was even founded....




    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 25, 2017 at 04:19 AM.
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project,
    and the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine.
    ........................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Medieval 2 hints for moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. No good mod yet, alas!
    Dominant strategy in Rome 2 TW and Attila TW: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!
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  11. #91
    tmodelsk's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Hi, I'm interested in 'geo-strategy', reading about it I found this : Maddison project.
    http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/maddison-project/home.htm

    Their goal is - as I understand - to collect various consistent economical data across history - and geo-strategists use it to find universal patterns across history (like ex.: Heartland - Rimland, importance of the trade routes, ... ).
    As I understand they're scientists basing on historical sources with some scientific methods to calculate consistent data.
    I did not dig much inside this site, but what I have find is a excel spreadsheet with GDP per capita data from year 1 AD for various 'nations'.
    It's located on this page , link title is Maddison Project Database, direct link is here.

    Maybe it could be useful it this considerations and in general.
    SSHIP mini-mods :

  12. #92
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Hi Guys,
    just a signal for future - problems in Anatolia.
    While playing Broken Crescent I've discovered a few issues with the maps in that mod (see here). I've also checked the SSHIP - and, to my surprise, I've spotted a similar problem concerning our region called "Pamphylia", with capital in Konya. Is it a right name for this province?
    Furthermore, I wonder why the city of Konya is such a big one with great buildings etc.? I've got no evidence handy, but I'm growing very suspicious. The Seljucs usually kept away of the cities. I wonder what did it mean in their system to have "a capital" and "a city". Was there really a university in this city in 1132? I doubt it very much. This is a very dry region, and in 12th century it was probably even dryier. My guess is: it was a town (this word is used also in the article in Wikipedia).
    Besides, to spice things up, the very name "Konya" should be applied to the town only from 1134 (according to Wikipedia)
    To be researched later, I think. Or maybe somebody familiar with this region would speak up?
    JoC
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 20, 2017 at 12:45 PM.

  13. #93
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    I disagree witrh you about Seljuks and cities but that's not the right thread for that discussion

    Anyway, noted about Konya. I'll see if I can find something about that region and settlement

    Edit: for 2 years, it isn't worth to change the name, is it?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 20, 2017 at 01:07 PM.
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  14. #94
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Seljuks - yes, not the place or time. But we'll get there at some point (or I will ;-)
    Konya - yes, not worth to change the name, I just wanted to provoke you a bit. But the size and the level of development of the settlement should be discussed for sure.

    The relevant question here is: which names of the provinces are "historical" in Anatolia in the SSHIP? The curent ones come from the ancient times. However, I think it's legitimate to use them as they were probably used by the local population in 12th century (although 14-15th century - perhaps the Turkish names took over?). For the moment I think that this Pamphylia should be changed into Lykaonia. I'd also change Pisidia into Pamphylia. The rest seems ok, but I haven't delved into it.

  15. #95
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    By the time SSHIP starts, Anatolia was quite newly conquered by the Seljuks (of Rûm). I guess that the Greek names were still used.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map


    https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Manzikert






    ZSüleyman ibn Kutalmış (1077-1086): The founder of the Seljuk power in Anatolia; capital at Iznik
    After an unsuccessful rebellion against the Great Seljuk leader Alp Arslan in 1064, the Seljuk chief Süleyman ibn Kutalmış was deflected from the settled lands of Persia into Anatolia, where he found ample opportunity for seizing land by warring against the Byzantines. He and his sons were soon recognized at the leaders of the Turkish tribes in Eastern Anatolia. Pushing westwards, they conquered Antioch and Konya. They also placed themselves at the service of the different candidates for the throne of the Byzantine empire. They went from one candidate to another, pledging military support against the concession of cities and provinces. When the Byzantine Alexius Comnena I gained power in 1081, he signed a treaty with Suleyman, stating that he could establish his capital at Iznik, not far from the Byzantine capital of Constantinople. At the same time, the Danishmendids firmly established themselves in the region of Sivas and Amasya, and the Armenians, previously vassals to the Byzantines, took advantage of the situation to declare their independence to set up a separate state in Cilicia in southeastern Anatolia.

    Suleyman bn Kutalmış was responsible for the installation of the Seljuks in Anatolia, as he declared himself independent from the Great Seljuks. He captured Antioch in 1086, and struggled to capture Aleppo, dying during one of the attempts. His son Kılıç Arslan was taken back to Iraq as a of war by the Great Seljuk ruler Melik Shah.

    http://www.turkishhan.org/history.htm

  17. #97

    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    In 1100s Turkic tribes were already occupied Konya, İznik. So changing name of Konya is little bit unfair, i think.

    Sorry for bad english.

  18. #98
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Sorry but obviously, you're wrong JoC
    There are sources mentioning Konya before 1134 AD.
    After the surrender of Nicaea in 1097 AD, Fulcher of Chartres mentioned already Konya. Some others Frankish sources described Konya as "a rich town, the inhabitants of which kindly received the armed pilgrims and supplied them with plenty of water and foodstuff".
    So, Konya will definitively stay Konya

    Regarding the regions, I need to make further researches but there are records from Anna Komene in which she linked Qilij Arslan to Konya described as the old provincial center of Lycaonia. Though she's also inaccurate with names and geographical details

    On the gameplay side, remember that Rûm starts relatively weak compare to ERE and is surrounded by quite strong independant settlements.

    On a side note, I'm not going to rework the whole map. I agree to make some slight adjustments around but nothing more. Have a look throught the SSHIP original thread (as already said) to get a better understanding of all the work that has been done by the past (and how it has been done). People have made a great job there and I won't question their work.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 21, 2017 at 07:59 AM.
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  19. #99
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    In terms of Konya vs Ikonion- what language did the Rum Sultans govern in? I wonder if the most "accurate" could be the Arabic- which I seem to remember is "Quniyyah", or something along those lines...?

    Re province names, I think probably the ancient ones are best. A century earlier, you'd have been talking about the Byzantine theme of the Anatolikon, but as the themes never recovered during the SSHIP period, I think you'd be pushed to use them.

  20. #100
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    ^^ especially if you consider that during the 1st half of the 12th century, Seljuks of Rûm had more connections (political and administrative) with Greeks than with other Seljuks.
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