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Thread: [Preview] Campaign Map

  1. #101
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Sorry but obviously, you're wrong JoC
    There are sources mentioning Konya before 1134 AD.
    After the surrender of Nicaea in 1097 AD, Fulcher of Chartres mentioned already Konya. Some others Frankish sources described Konya as "a rich town, the inhabitants of which kindly received the armed pilgrims and supplied them with plenty of water and foodstuff".
    So, Konya will definitively stay Konya
    I didn't call for the change of the name. I've just pointed that if you want to be absolutely precise, the Wikipedia states "The name of the town was changed to Konya (in Persian: قونیه‎‎ quniya) by Mesud I in 1134.[" Actually, I've already voiced my scepticism for using Wikipedia as the definitive source ;-) It's useful, but there're much more issues to take into account while deciding on the name. For instance, what was the name in the following centuries. Or the fact that many names existed at that time and it should be adjusted to the faction. Threfore for Rum the choice of Konya is the best. Unless you take into account this note :
    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    In terms of Konya vs Ikonion- what language did the Rum Sultans govern in? I wonder if the most "accurate" could be the Arabic- which I seem to remember is "Quniyyah", or something along those lines...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Regarding the regions, I need to make further researches but there are records from Anna Komene in which she linked Qilij Arslan to Konya described as the old provincial center of Lycaonia. Though she's also inaccurate with names and geographical details
    It's precisely what I'd suggested: change Pamphylia into Lycaonia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    On the gameplay side, remember that Rūm starts relatively weak compare to ERE and is surrounded by quite strong independant settlements.
    On one hand I agree, but on the other you need to stick to the realities. Let's look for the evidence of the population of Konya. If we don't find something significant then there'd no reason to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    On a side note, I'm not going to rework the whole map. I agree to make some slight adjustments around but nothing more. Have a look throught the SSHIP original thread (as already said) to get a better understanding of all the work that has been done by the past (and how it has been done). People have made a great job there and I won't question their work.
    I think your rework of the Iranian highlands, or the resources and brooks in Poland, or the Caucasus and the Arax river is marvellous and stands up the work of the giants whose work you're building upon. They might have not been precise at their time, but you're just upgrading their work.
    Another example of this work is the refinement of the HRR provinces' names, as agreed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    By the time SSHIP starts, Anatolia was quite newly conquered by the Seljuks (of Rūm). I guess that the Greek names were still used.
    That's exactly my point. I understand that the rule is: "All names of the provinces in the SSHIP are as they were in the 12th century" (at least for the early era). I understand that's also the case for all the settlements. An addition to this rule is that the current ruler language is decisive if many names existed in reality (Konya - Ikonium, Erzerum - Karin etc.).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 21, 2017 at 10:55 AM.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Well, the problem in Anatolia is that the current regions in game don't necessary respect the real one (but that's not the only part of the map in that case). So, yes, Pamphylia is actually more in South, basically the Eastern part of the Lycia region in game. If we rename Pamphylia as Lycaonia (which is more accurate, I agree), what would be the new name for the current Lycaonia in game, considering that it is part of Cappadocia province in the real world (hope I'm understandable ).
    Any idea for that province?

    Regarding Rūm, I'll make a dedicated thread (like for Georgia) for that faction later on to discuss about units, settlements, etc... (put the link here fto not loose it: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/saljuqs-iii)
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 21, 2017 at 01:51 PM.
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  3. #103
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Well, the problem in Anatolia is that the current regions in game don't necessary respect the real one (but that's not the only part of the map in that case). So, yes, Pamphylia is actually more in South, basically the Eastern part of the Lycia region in game. If we rename Pamphylia as Lycaonia (which is more accurate, I agree), what would be the new name for the current Lycaonia in game, considering that it is part of Cappadocia province in the real world (hope I'm understandable ).
    Any idea for that province?

    Regarding Rūm, I'll make a dedicated thread (like for Georgia) for that faction later on to discuss about units, settlements, etc... (put the link here fto not loose it: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/saljuqs-iii)
    I think the whole issue should be more discussed so let's gather ideas in the thread you mentioned. For the moment just to note I've got further doubts:
    - Soutern Cappadocia is now around Malatya, on the eastern side of the Antitaurus. I don't think it's the proper name since Cappadocia were on the western side of the mountais, it was the Halys basin area. Eg. in the Broken Crescent this part is called Lesser Armenia (which I also have doubts). Commagene would be more pertinent I think (but I'm not certain).
    --- the central part of the current SSHIP province Lycia is made out of the historical Pamphylia while spreading west to Lycia and east to some parts of Rough Cilicia / Isauria. I'm not sure about the use of "Pamphylia" term in 12th century, but at the moment it sounds right to me. In the Roman times there're was a province "Lycia and Pamphylia" here (although for a short time). Lycia was in fact just a small hilly land with some rivers and some towns sitting on them. I don't think we should use it in SSHIP for such a vast province.
    --- there's not Pontus province in SSHIP. I believe the term was used extensivelly in the Middle Ages. There's Chaldia province with Trebizon, I've got no clue about, so I cannot tell. I assume it's right but one may reflect upon. In the Ancient times the Northern Cappadocia was called Kapadokia Pontika what then transformed into Pontus. In the late antiquity it was supposed to be on the coast, so I thought that the coast with Trebizond would be called Pontus. Again. I'm still not firm on it.

    Initial thought is that we may replace names:
    --- Pamphylia (Konya) with Lycaonia,
    --- Lycia (Attaleia) with "Lycia and Pamphylia" or "Pamphylia"
    --- Lycaonia (Kayseri) with Southern Cappadocia,
    --- Souther Cappadocia (Malatya) with something different (Armenia Minor, Commagene or simply Malatya)

    /Pro memoria: there's a city on the Euphratus/Firat called in arabic Qualiquala, armenian Karin, turkish Erzurum, greek Theodosiopoulis. I wonder which of these names should be used in the SSHIP. Now it's Qualiqala which seems to be right in 7-10 century, but perhaps not later on. It got its Turkish name after the invasions following the battle of Mantzikert (see here, but've read it elsewhere). It seems to me that in the SSHIP it should be Erzurum while playing the Turks and Karin while playing Geogria and Theodosioupolis while playing Vasileia ton Hromaion or Kiev./

    Anyway, create the thread and maybe some other people (Giorgios? Antonisilus?) would have ideas. We need a discussion, like we had on HRR provinces.

    BTW - Rum in the High Era campaign (1236) is overpowered: it has 8 very developed provinces. Close to that moment it should also have a gigantic Mongol army at the gates (to be defeat Rum at Kose Dag 1243). I think in the SSHIP the Mongols come later in the High Era (I don't know how it's going) so we need to make the life of Rum harsher with the other means. It would be strange to have smaller and less developed settlements in the high era than in the early era though. So - Carthaginem delendam esse - I think that Konya should be nerfed much in the early campaign, and the game balance in 1132 should be restored through other means (like additional nomad army ready to take over more lands? This would be more historical and would leave the player space to develop this land during his own game, not be given with a 70k, 50k, 40k settlements...
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 22, 2017 at 04:02 PM.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
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    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
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    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
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    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
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  4. #104
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    About Ani:
    Yes, I know that most people exaggerated numbers, size and glory of of basically everything in the middle ages. I also dont doubt the decline of Ani. But the bynames "city of forty gates" and the "city of a thousand and one churches" also didn't come from a small settlement I think. That's why I gave them large walls and a population of 50.000, with a declining tendency. Maybe that could be lowered a bit further to around 30.000-35.000
    I'm just reading a book about Crimea in the Genoese times and I think this info might be useful in future:
    - the number of inhabitants of Caffa is assessed 20.000 in 14c. and 10.000 in 15c. (Michel Balard assessement based on different sources, for instance mid-15c. one source claims "70.000", another source claims "4.000")
    - the number of churches in Caffa (15c): 40 latin, 3 orthodox, 1 muslim.

  5. #105

    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I think the whole issue should be more discussed so let's gather ideas in the thread you mentioned. For the moment just to note I've got further doubts:
    - Soutern Cappadocia is now around Malatya, on the eastern side of the Antitaurus. I don't think it's the proper name since Cappadocia were on the western side of the mountais, it was the Halys basin area. Eg. in the Broken Crescent this part is called Lesser Armenia (which I also have doubts). Commagene would be more pertinent I think (but I'm not certain).
    --- the central part of the current SSHIP province Lycia is made out of the historical Pamphylia while spreading west to Lycia and east to some parts of Rough Cilicia / Isauria. I'm not sure about the use of "Pamphylia" term in 12th century, but at the moment it sounds right to me. In the Roman times there're was a province "Lycia and Pamphylia" here (although for a short time). Lycia was in fact just a small hilly land with some rivers and some towns sitting on them. I don't think we should use it in SSHIP for such a vast province.
    --- there's not Pontus province in SSHIP. I believe the term was used extensivelly in the Middle Ages. There's Chaldia province with Trebizon, I've got no clue about, so I cannot tell. I assume it's right but one may reflect upon. In the Ancient times the Northern Cappadocia was called Kapadokia Pontika what then transformed into Pontus. In the late antiquity it was supposed to be on the coast, so I thought that the coast with Trebizond would be called Pontus. Again. I'm still not firm on it.

    Initial thought is that we may replace names:
    --- Pamphylia (Konya) with Lycaonia,
    --- Lycia (Attaleia) with "Lycia and Pamphylia" or "Pamphylia"
    --- Lycaonia (Kayseri) with Southern Cappadocia,
    --- Souther Cappadocia (Malatya) with something different (Armenia Minor, Commagene or simply Malatya)
    According to the theme maps I have and on the wiki, when playing Rome, I would suggest that:
    1. Trapezus----theme of Chaldia
    2. Attaleia---theme of Mylasa and Melanoudion
    3. Ikonion---theme of Anatolik
    4. Sinope---theme of Armeniak
    5. Ankyra---theme of Bucellarians
    6. Kayseri---theme of Charsianon
    7. Sebasteia---theme of Sebasteia
    8. Malatya---theme of Mesopotamia

  6. #106
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] SSHIP - Campaign Map

    Given that the names of the provinces are unchangeable during the game, renaming of the provinces as the names of the themes is not possible. It has to be something that can be used by Rum and other Muslims as well. These have to be names of the regions which were more-or-less in common use throughout the Middle Ages, not by the Roman administration and military.

  7. #107

    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Hi,

    I want to know what mod you use to settlements, seems is a similar work of Agart Cities Models in this thread: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...t-Models-v-1-0

    I try to find the mod of the cities but cant find, you know who do it? Im really interested to add in my mod this settlements models, looks relly cool

    See more about Tierra Santa TW and other projects in Discord
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  8. #108
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Werety View Post
    Hi,

    I want to know what mod you use to settlements, seems is a similar work of Agart Cities Models in this thread: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...t-Models-v-1-0

    I try to find the mod of the cities but cant find, you know who do it? Im really interested to add in my mod this settlements models, looks relly cool
    Hi Werety,
    I personally don't know. I doubt any of the current memebers of the team would know. You may ask @Lifthrasir by PM, maybe he would know.
    cheers
    JoC
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  9. #109

    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Hi Werety,
    I personally don't know. I doubt any of the current memebers of the team would know. You may ask @Lifthrasir by PM, maybe he would know.
    cheers
    JoC
    Hi

    Seriosuly nobody know the guy who made this models in this mod? are Credits deleted of the mod or the creator is a ghost? XD

    I write a MP, I hope he can answer, and btw, the files are inside the SSHIP mod I understand? I download the submod and look inside the files for the credits.txt and cant find nothing.

    Thx Jurand for your quickly reply

    See more about Tierra Santa TW and other projects in Discord
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  10. #110

    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    So I was checking each one of my settlements in my campaign as Castille, and I was shocked when I saw the "inherent fertility" of the region of Galicia, to the Northwest of the Iberian peninsula. It was 0, nothing at all. It was a unique case within my settlements, so I had to check with other factions if it was an error. Apparently not so, because, even though rare, there are a few settlements among the starting ones of some factions with no "inherent fertility" either. And it made sense to see it in places such as the area of Arabia, but IDK, it still irks me to see it in a region as green as Galicia. Even today, Galicia seems to be on the upper half of Spanish regions when it comes to the weight the agriculture and cattle industry has in each region.

    I'd never say it's as fertile as the South of Spain, but at least a bit more than the desert? I'm not sure if this value of "0" also contradicts the script that talks about population growth, and how the "inherent fertility" can vary from 0.5 to 3 (which would also be wrong for the high end, as there're some regions with an inherent fertility as high as 5%, around the river delta of the Nile and Baghdad).

    BTW, checking out all those starting settlements, I was also very surprised by the low fertility of the regions around the current Ukraine, considered at least nowadays to be among the most fertile ones in Europe. Maybe they didn't know how to properly exploit them back then?

    Not sure if any of this can be adjusted, but I wanted to point it out.
    Last edited by Dhoule; September 18, 2022 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #111
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhoule View Post
    So I was checking each one of my settlements in my campaign as Castille, and I was shocked when I saw the "inherent fertility" of the region of Galicia, to the Northwest of the Iberian peninsula. It was 0, nothing at all. It was a unique case within my settlements, so I had to check with other factions if it was an error. Apparently not so, because, even though rare, there are a few settlements among the starting ones of some factions with no "inherent fertility" either. And it made sense to see it in places such as the area of Arabia, but IDK, it still irks me to see it in a region as green as Galicia. Even today, Galicia seems to be on the upper half of Spanish regions when it comes to the weight the agriculture and cattle industry has in each region.

    I'd never say it's as fertile as the South of Spain, but at least a bit more than the desert? I'm not sure if this value of "0" also contradicts the script that talks about population growth, and how the "inherent fertility" can vary from 0.5 to 3 (which would also be wrong for the high end, as there're some regions with an inherent fertility as high as 5%, around the river delta of the Nile and Baghdad).

    BTW, checking out all those starting settlements, I was also very surprised by the low fertility of the regions around the current Ukraine, considered at least nowadays to be among the most fertile ones in Europe. Maybe they didn't know how to properly exploit them back then?

    Not sure if any of this can be adjusted, but I wanted to point it out.
    Santiago province - it was always far-away, poor and sparsly populated area. It has 0 fertility so that Compostela stays a rather minor settlement (which, actually is not possible - it soon gets unhistorically big anyway).
    Ukraine - the heavy soils and type of rainfall made it utterly unsuitable for agriculture until 19th, or rather 20th century. Only with very heavy plow, long term investment (requiring very stable politics) it could develop to the world breadbasket it is today.

    this said, the whole parameter of fertility is a problem in the Med2 engine, because there's also a large impact of trade on the population growth. Afaik, the EBII mod dealt with it by setting 1 fertility to all regions, and switching growth parameters to the buildings.

  12. #112

    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    I see, that makes sense. I guess that may also be the reason Santiago doesn't stand out in trade, either? Although all of this makes me wonder if it was even worth to keep the settlement at all, and not just put it all in one bigger Leon region.

  13. #113
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhoule View Post
    I see, that makes sense. I guess that may also be the reason Santiago doesn't stand out in trade, either? Although all of this makes me wonder if it was even worth to keep the settlement at all, and not just put it all in one bigger Leon region.
    This is one of few special regions in the Med2 - with the tomb/church/cathedral, possibility to gain special traits etc. Also in the map you need to have second-order provinces for the gameplay. Santiago doesn't stand out at the beginning, but later it improves - once one builds a port. And then it grows too much...

  14. #114
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    This point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    this said, the whole parameter of fertility is a problem in the Med2 engine, because there's also a large impact of trade on the population growth. Afaik, the EBII mod dealt with it by setting 1 fertility to all regions, and switching growth parameters to the buildings.
    is illustrated here:


    EDIT: the parameters have been adjusted so that trade doesn't play such a role.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 08, 2022 at 11:30 AM.

  15. #115
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    The Kingdom of Georgia conveniently used narrow passages and valleys. I think this version will be better for the player. The strategy of the Kingdom of Georgia is defense, the player should enjoy blocking roads and defensive battles. We need narrow roads and forests for guerrilla tactic - Georgian mountaineers used these places very well for fighting.The red X marks the places of the Georgian mountaineers
    Last edited by Khevsur; October 08, 2022 at 11:29 AM.

  16. #116
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Here is a nice map of the La Manche busy with trade. Also the Mt St Michel building is visible in Normandy (ie in Rouen).


  17. #117
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map



    This territory of the Kingdom of Georgia is unfairly cut off. In the Middle Ages, the Georgian kingdom was revived from this area. It was a cultural and historical center. Look at the maps
    Georgian Medieval Shields By Khevsur

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/017uq....2023.rar/file

  18. #118
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post

    This territory of the Kingdom of Georgia is unfairly cut off. In the Middle Ages, the Georgian kingdom was revived from this area. It was a cultural and historical center. Look at the maps
    If I'm not mistaken, you're using an old map. Check in the mod - it already is as you suggest.
    Tao-Klarjeti was indeed a center of the Georgian stathood in 10th century. I'm not sure how it would have defined itself (ie the elites) in 12-16th centuries, eg. during the Zakkarid period. Anyway, it's already in the Georgian province.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 29, 2023 at 03:34 AM.

  19. #119
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    it's good


    I saw the new map and Tao-Klarjeti is right there

  20. #120
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    Default Re: [Preview] Campaign Map

    It would be good and much more historical to divide Georgia into 4 regions

    1.Egris-Abkhazeti - Kutatisi
    2.Kartli- Tiflisi
    3.Tao-klarjeti - Artanuji
    3.Kathet-Hereti -Telavi


    The Kingdom of Georgia was created by the union of these 4 Georgian kingdoms and regions. These cities were the centers of these regions
    Georgian Medieval Shields By Khevsur

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/017uq....2023.rar/file

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