USA jails and Obama's Clemency program

**alhoon** · June 03, 2014, 10:09 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-of-p...014250109.html

Obama's offering pardons to non-violent federal prisoners that have been sentenced to decades in jail by now defunct anti-drug laws.
Out of the 18000 petitions, hundreds or potentially even thousands would receive clemency, in an effort to remove some pressure from jails.

That, along with the "Decades in prison for non-violent crimes" had me looking about the USA's incarcerated number.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate
I went

USA is FIRST IN THE WORLD (From countries counted) in prisoners per 1000 people. The total prisoner population of USA is DOUBLE that of China, that has 1 billion more people!
About 1% of USA's population are in prison and about 3% are incarcerated/parole/probation. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce..._United_States )

What is going on there? How did that happen? I knew that for all the "Land of the Free" trumpets USA's record is not the best, but 3% of the population under correctional supervision?

**Vanoi** · June 03, 2014, 10:13 AM

The War on Drugs happened.

**Earl Dibbles Jr** · June 03, 2014, 10:16 AM

We punish non-violent criminals too harshly and we're often sympathetic to violent criminals. Couple that with a Government that needs populated jails to ensure that no jobs are lost and you have the U.S.

**snuggans** · June 03, 2014, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by alhoon

Obama's offering pardons to non-violent federal prisoners that have been sentenced to decades in jail by now defunct anti-drug laws.
Out of the 18000 petitions, hundreds or potentially even thousands would receive clemency, in an effort to remove some pressure from jails.

what is wrong with this exactly? *scratches head*

this is positive news to me.
but then you went on to try and spin it in a negative light by listing other statistics that explain the need for what the article just described. at the very least start off with a link that properly bashes the US or the white house.

**alhoon** · June 03, 2014, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by snuggans

what is wrong with this exactly? *scratches head*

this is positive news to me.
but then you went on to try and spin it in a negative light by listing other statistics that explain the need for what the article just described. at the very least start off with a link that properly bashes the US or the white house.

OF COURSE, I find it a good thing. What made you think I find it a bad thing?

I find overcrowded prisons and millions of people in jail a bad thing.

**snuggans** · June 03, 2014, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by alhoon

OF COURSE, I find it a good thing. What made you think I find it a bad thing?

your second half of the post? and your posting history?

**Condottiere 40K** · June 03, 2014, 10:41 AM

If you overload the justice system, they'll be more willing to compromise with the perpetrators who can afford to hire connected, expensive, experienced legal brigades, and throw the book at those relying on harassed, overworked public defenders.

**alhoon** · June 03, 2014, 10:57 AM

The 2nd part of the post is what I find wrong with the USA's incarceration system. The 2nd part of the post essentially proves why clemency is a good thing. I really don't understand how it could be perceived as "you spinned it in a bad light" considering that the 2nd part of the post shows why I find clemency useful/necessary.

My posting history?

I've a neutral posting history, if I posted in Ukraine thread, it's probably 1-2 posts months ago.
You probably confuse me with someone else. In any case...

Is it clear now, that I find the first part about clemency a good thing and the 2nd part, about tons of people in prison, a bad thing?

**snuggans** · June 03, 2014, 11:15 AM

i do apologize about the Ukraine thing, but i've noticed you also have created other negative threads about the USA and automatically grouped you up with the other anti-US/anti-west crowd in this board, so i assumed this was yet another anti-US circlejerk.

**alhoon** · June 03, 2014, 11:21 AM

It is an informed anti-USA post, since USA does something wrong (1% in jail/prison).
But they take one step to the right direction (clemency) after another step in the right direction. They have way to go though.

**Col. Tartleton** · June 03, 2014, 12:02 PM

Non violent prison population are bad for the economy. They cost taxpayers money and they would be generating more value in the real economy.

**Roma_Victrix** · June 03, 2014, 12:05 PM

The War on Drugs...what a pointless failure. Rehabilitation is the way to go, just like we do for alcohol in Alcoholics Anonymous. Apparently we as a country learned nothing about the Prohibition Era either, that prohibiting such drugs actually makes everything ten times worse and gives organized crime exactly what it wants: profitable illicit trade. With that comes illicit disputes that usually end in violence, hence a rise in violence as well. It's so stupid I can't believe we fell for it again.

Plus think of all the young lives that have been ruined by sending people en masse to jail. They can never get felonies like that off their record, destroying their opportunity to find meaningful employment. In fact, incarceration of non-violent drug offenders usually ruins their lives to such an extent that they commit the same crimes again and wind back in the system, or worse, become corrupted by it and do something worse like violent crime.

**Condottiere 40K** · June 03, 2014, 12:05 PM

But they make convenient captive pools of labour so that American companies don't need to off-shore to China.

**conon394** · June 03, 2014, 12:18 PM

As other as said the War on drugs and Prostitution - non-winnable wars that never should have been fought. Also more subtly is the vast underfunding of the prisons if we did want to imprison so many people. One particular thing that strikes me is the vast cut back in the parole system such that officers cannot really help released individual navigate out of the system.

**alhoon** · June 03, 2014, 02:33 PM

But WHY would a country want to imprison so many people?! Not even bloodthirsty dictatorships have that high number.

3% in probation/parole/jail is a huge number. We're talking about people that the state has educated up to usually highschool ... and then they found themselves in jail. I can't believe that 1/35 Americans is a criminal.

**tarvu** · June 03, 2014, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by alhoon

But WHY would a country want to imprison so many people?! Not even bloodthirsty dictatorships have that high number.

3% in probation/parole/jail is a huge number. We're talking about people that the state has educated up to usually highschool ... and then they found themselves in jail. I can't believe that 1/35 Americans is a criminal.

Several generations of politicians ran on the platform of being "tough on crime" which meant harsher prison sentences, "three strikes your out", etc. etc.

Mostly targeting minority populations, being "tough on crime" won points with a lot of Americans who are racist, and poor hating individuals. After all the now establishment white baby boomers who smoked pot openly on the street in the sixties weren't having their kids thrown in jail for a joint of marijuana let alone the mountains of cocaine they were shoveling into their noses during the 80's. The war on (poor people and minority's) drugs was a perfect opportunity for a retaliation in the culture/race/class war against the truly "undeserving" poor/Black/Hispanic population after the setbacks of the civil rights movement, war on poverty, and other liberal victories.

Honestly if it wasn't for the prohibitive cost and the inability of corrections, even with the help of private for-profit prisons, to keep up with the booming prison population amidst the recent economic and budget crises I doubt we would see the same public backlash we are seeing today against imprisoning non-violent (non-white) prisoners, it is hardly a new issue just one that is highlighted because we can no longer really afford this war.

Without Afghanistan and Iraq I'm sure we wouldn't be talking about decriminalization and legalization of Marijuana, or rewriting the sentencing discrepancies among different forms of cocaine. It is more likely we would be continuing on the path of the past three decades and imprisoning (effectively disenfranchising them and destroying their social and political capital) record amounts of people from minority and impoverished communities in our attacks on them. Then again a lot would be different if we had the money we spent on our real wars back to focus on perpetuating our internal ones.

**Dargaron** · June 04, 2014, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by alhoon

But why would a country want to imprison so many people?! Not even bloodthirsty dictatorships have that high number.

Emphasis mine.

Maybe the bloodthirsty dictatorships have...other ways of dealing with people they don't like?

**mrmouth** · June 03, 2014, 06:33 PM

The numbers also haven't proven it to be a failure in terms of reduction in crime. You put a

-ton of people in prison, crime drops to historically low levels (which means more gun ownership...), Govt funding to the police and prison unions increases, which in-turn feeds your elections bid, etc, etc. Snowball grows larger.

These are brave, monumental, society-changing moves. The unions will fight back with the help of conservatives (ironically enough), just like they are with the new EPA rules. But if we hold ground this society is primed for major, positive change. A lot is already underway at a fevered pace that even the most militant detractors cannot stop. The progressive movement is underway.