Charging infantry units are way too fast for way too long

[antred]

Title says it all really. Case in point, it's very annoying to have a skirmishing velites unit get charged by heavy melee infantry and then chased all the way across the battle map with the melee infantry actually managing to close the distance!

1. Shouldn't skirmishers actually have a stamina and speed advantage over melee infantry (especially over the heavier types).
2. Shouldn't the "Charging" mode revert to "Moving fast" if the charge fails to make contact even after xyz seconds of charging like mad?
3. Isn't stamina way too high for ALL unit types at the moment? As it stands, units can literally run from one end of the map to the opposite end and barely break a sweat.

There's a related issue that actually seems to contradict the point I was making above. Sometimes when my cavalry charges an AI archer / slinger unit that has strayed too far from its lines, that skirmishing unit will suddenly run at insane speed that seems only slightly slower than my charging horses, which means they often actually manage to make it back to their lines. Is that an AI cheat, because I sure have never seen one of my units run that fast.

[Butan]

I noticed that too, but afaik its linked to the warscape engine of dealing with a unit as a single entity: if your unit is stretched out a lot and you ask it to charge something, the farthest soldiers will go at insane speed to keep up with the closest soldiers which will charge at normal speed.


Its a kind of exploit to keep a heavier unit in "charging mode" to keep chasing lighter units, using the charging animation speed. It could be toned down so that the exploit is harder to pull.



I have to say I dont agree with your point 3. : some units do have improved stamina + good base stamina which makes them able to run for long distances, but most average units can not sprint more than a few hundreds yards before being tired in-game. Maybe you're playing with really good units actually? Because there is indeed some units (even heavy units) which have impressive stamina regeneration

[JObadiah]

I think chevrons improve unit stamina or stamina regen too? But yeah I recall reading that someone had experimented with making charge speed slower than run speed, and that this actually worked out very well (especially for light vs. heavy infantry).

[Butan]

I recall reading that someone had experimented with making charge speed slower than run speed, and that this actually worked out very well (especially for light vs. heavy infantry).

You sure that someone was experimenting this after DeI last speed overhaul? Now the running speed is barely a trot, if you make charge speed slower than running speed it would need to be between a walk (walking speed) and a jog and it would subtract from the feeling of impact.

I would like to see the results of such an experiment though.

[JObadiah]

It wasn't a DeI thing. It was a 'wip' mod that is now apparently abandoned.

[Summary]

Heavy infantry could catch up to skirmishers. It is not like skirmishers were untouchable because they could run faster as they had less equipment. Heavy infantry were trained to run fast in heavy equipment. Their training was more vigorous. Yes, I can understand a person who for the first time in his life wore armor would run at a snail's pace. But these men lived a majority of their lives in wars and wear heavy equipment. Moreover, when armor covers the entire body the weight is spread evenly, so there is no great difficulty to run as one would imagine. I hate that ranged units especially horse archers can go an entire battle without melee confrontation.

[antred]

Heavy infantry could catch up to skirmishers. It is not like skirmishers were untouchable because they could run faster as they had less equipment. Heavy infantry were trained to run fast in heavy equipment. Their training was more vigorous. Yes, I can understand a person who for the first time in his life wore armor would run at a snail's pace. But these men lived a majority of their lives in wars and wear heavy equipment. Moreover, when armor covers the entire body the weight is spread evenly, so there is no great difficulty to run as one would imagine. I hate that ranged units especially horse archers can go an entire battle without melee confrontation.

Nonsense. Not every heavy melee unit consisted of super-athletes. Maybe a few elite units did, but the vast majority would not be able to dash at full sprint for several hundred meters (in full armor, no less) and still be "Fresh" or "Active" at worst.

[KAM 2150]

The thing is, besides chargé, there is no sprinting in the game and there should not be. Sprinting will leave you exhausted pretty fast, but regular run, especially for someone as fit as legionares would tire you after much longers distance. After running for 5km with large bottle of water in my hand I feel "Active" in RTW2 terms Legionare training included running around the camp in full gear, not to mention all long marching and fort building. Hoplites were accustomed to running in gear too.

I do agree, that average infantry would not be in that great shape, but to be honest, people were more fit back then, then regular Joe now is.

For example, in Poland we have Commando Halfmarathon (Commandro from the name, it is for soldiers, police officers and firefighters), which is 21km on icy road, with freezing weather and minimum of 10kg of gear in backback + full soldiers uniform, but without rifle. People finish it in around 1.5-2 hours. Of course after that people are exhausted, but it is freaking 21km in horrible conditions. If we take normal RTW2 sized map I guess they would not be exhausted from running it's all length.

I agree, that charging should take a lot from the stamina, fighting too, but regular run should not since in DeI it is not even close to sprinting speed and anyone who runs from time to time knows that regular running will not exhaust you.

[Butan]

You're right KAM, but even if you take realistic elements to prove your point you forget that marching/jogging as a unit is slower and more tiring than running solo except if you go perfectly straight and on a perfectly flat ground. There is always someone laggin' behind, bumpin' on his or others feet, a bend, a bump in the road, which will slow everyone down, except for units which are perfectly drilled. For me they represent the "elite" unit, so I would prefer that only the elite units have improved stamina regeneration than the average Joe soldier (even if as you said, documents prove that back then people were fitter). The elite would have very good stamina even if they are a heavy unit. Then a non-elite unit which is lightly geared could have the same stamina, but if they have too much weight on them they should tire quicker.

In the end, its also very interesting to have a very broad (and sometimes unrealistic) stamina balance over all kind of military units, so that you have extremely light - extremely heavy units with extremely poor and extremely good stamina lots of combination which makes for lots of way to manage your guys.


On the matter of charge speed, I think its best that it stays like this (a sprint), but if possible it could be tweaked so that there is less bugged insanely fast speed animation.
Running speed is a quick walk/jog to destination and marching speed is a slow walk: perfect for me.


Sprinting and fighting is the most tiring IRL, joggin' as you said shouldnt take so much stamina out of the soldiers, maybe it could be toned down, as long as it doesnt revert the game to a "vanilla state" where you can deploy your left flank to the right flank in a matter of seconds

[KAM 2150]

Well, I always have some nice girl to run with me, so that might be unfair advantage over soldiers in formation

Thing is, we can't simulate if all soldiers are fit in the unit and we can always assume that one of the guys had to rough party last night

One of the things worth notice might be how fast units can regenerate their stamina. Elite units or in my opinion disciplined units like elites or legionares should take longer to tire and replenish stamina quicker. There might be units that will run fast and for some distance but take longer to rest. I think that most of people here could run for 1 mile without resting and with descent speed resembling legionare joggin, but they would be also exhausted and heavy breathing and it would take them some time to recover strength.

[Butan]

Lucky you

I looked at stamina regen/cost tables once and understood only half there might be some loopholes left unattended since as you, I sometimes noticed units getting tired wayyyy too fast, some almost never. Hard to tell with the ongoing WIP of DeI if its intended or not.

[Harnis]

it's not a matter of a roman legionary or a hoplite being able to run a kilometer in full gear. They probably could.

The issue is unit cohesion. Heavy infantry is "heavy" because they fight in a tight disciplined formation, and that formation is what allows them to beat more unorganized infantry. The idea that a cohort of legionaries could run full speed and still maintain cohesion is ridiculous.

I remember Aiemnestus' submod. He had it so that heavy infantry moving at double speed still only walked, just faster walking then regular speed. Only cavalry and light infantry could actually run.

basically, I think heavy infantry should not be able to run, just maybe walk faster or a light jog. Historically, heavy infantry formations didn't run around the battlefield.

[Summary]

it's not a matter of a roman legionary or a hoplite being able to run a kilometer in full gear. They probably could.

The issue is unit cohesion. Heavy infantry is "heavy" because they fight in a tight disciplined formation, and that formation is what allows them to beat more unorganized infantry. The idea that a cohort of legionaries could run full speed and still maintain cohesion is ridiculous.

I remember Aiemnestus' submod. He had it so that heavy infantry moving at double speed still only walked, just faster walking then regular speed. Only cavalry and light infantry could actually run.

basically, I think heavy infantry should not be able to run, just maybe walk faster or a light jog. Historically, heavy infantry formations didn't run around the battlefield.

No disrespect mate, but nobody said anything about running in cohesion.

[Harnis]

No disrespect mate, but nobody said anything about running in cohesion.

cohesion is the main purpose of heavy infantry. no cohesion = a bunch of soldiers trained as heavy infantry with heavy infantry gear fighting like light infantry. queue slaughter by actual light infantry.

KAM, yeah, a slow jog is fine, and that's pretty much how it is now in DeI. OP's issue is of course with charge speed being used when chasing a unit, but that's it's own issue.

[KAM 2150]

Actually, all of was wrote that running and keeping formation cohesion is bad We just used different ways to describe it Slow jog in formation is part of the drill even ancient soldiers had to take, but problem is fast running/sprinting with maintaining formation and stamina which simply won't work.