State Sponsored Cuckoldry in France

[sumskilz]

For some time now I’ve been aware that ancestry based genetic research is effectively illegal in France. Consequently it’s difficult to find a good French data set for any sort of French population. Data sets exist, but since they’ve been taken from people with French ancestry living abroad, they’re hardly a random sampling (and forget about getting your hands on any kind of regionalized sampling). I had assumed that this law was meant to discourage any sort of development of set of genetic data which could be used as a diagnostic for native French ancestry. The fear of course being that it could be used to support racist motives or compromise Frenchness as defined culturally. I find this sort of anti-Science ideology to be self-defeating, but that’s not my primary interest in starting this thread.

I have recently had it brought to my attention that additionally this law effectively bans paternity testing. A paternity test can still be conducted if it is court ordered and the mother gives her full consent. Essentially paternity tests are only legal when they don’t really matter. I supposed they could be used to reassure a father who has absolutely no reason to be concerned, but for most cases the law essentially means that a father has absolutely no right to know if the child he is legally obligated to is biologically his. Incidentally, when it was still legal to conduct such research, it was found that France has the highest non-paternity rate of any developed country – about 10%.

Here’s the law: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affich...tegorieLien=id

My French isn’t fantastic, but it looks like it passes itself off as sort of a privacy law which makes me wonder if the two issues I’ve noted were hidden agendas or only abuses of the law. Note the one year in prison or € 1,500 fine.

So anyone in France aware of this? Is it a public issue at all?

[conon394]

Oh for f-sake poor men - give me a f-k break away and they never have to carry a baby or give birth or deal with an abortion. Honestly cry me a river. What a law biased toward women oh no maybe it's just 10,000 years of payback.

Incidentally, when it was still legal to conduct such research, it was found that France has the highest non-paternity rate of any developed country

It takes 2 for that so really the also protects men who are sleeping around and could be forced to pay support... or get a kid out of their one fling.

[sumskilz]

Oh for f-sake poor men - give me a f-k break away and they never have to carry a baby or give birth or deal with an abortion. Honestly cry me a river. What a law biased toward women oh no maybe it's just 10,000 years of payback.

What's with the emotional response? It doesn't make a difference to you or me. You don't think the principal or the precedent are an issue? How many wrongs does it take to make a right? Evidently theft and deception by women today is perfectly acceptable because the legal situation was unfavorable for their ancestors. Fraud is okay as long as you have to carry a baby to get away with it. I think I'm more concerned about the mindset of your response than the actual issue.

It takes 2 for that so really the also protects men who are sleeping around and could be forced to pay support... or get a kid out of their one fling.

Exactly, it also supports the classic irresponsible male mating strategies (though he may sometimes be an unwitting player).

EDIT: Here's another perspective that you might find more amiable:

DNA tests are an anti-feminist appliance of science, a change in the balance of power between the sexes that we’ve hardly come to terms with. And that holds true even though many women have the economic potential to provide for their children themselves… Uncertainty allows mothers to select for their children the father who would be best for them. The point is that paternity was ambiguous and it was effectively up to the mother to name her child’s father, or not… Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter… in making paternity conditional on a test rather than the say-so of the mother, it has removed from women a powerful instrument of choice.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/...hos-the-daddy/

[Phier]

Well overly emotional responses aside, I find it really, really odd that France would ban DNA testing of the population at a voluntary level. It seems most absurd. Are they afraid they are just a product of "general European DNA" with nothing uniquely "French" about them? I can't think of any reason to limit this sort of thing that makes even the remotest sense unless the law was just a poorly thought out law by people who thought that population DNA testing would somehow be the same as knowing everyone genetic diseases and personal traits or some nonsense.

EDIT: Here's another perspective that you might find more amiable:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/...hos-the-daddy/

Wow, that woman is an awful human being.

[sumskilz]

I find it really, really odd that France would ban DNA testing of the population at a voluntary level. It seems most absurd. Are they afraid they are just a product of "general European DNA" with nothing uniquely "French" about them?

I suspect some regional populations are closer to neighbors across the border than to each other, but I think the mainstream view there is French citizenship = French nationality, so I don't get it.

With regard to paternity testing, I'm certainly unsurprised by the legal emasculation of European men, I'm just curious if it's controversial. Allegedly samples sent to foreign labs have been confiscated and the senders fined.

I know this website is not neutral (but the testing company is legit):

The reasons for which the [French] Government said the ban should remain were related to the preservation of peace within French families. According to some online articles, Germany, has also banned (or plans to ban) paternity testing for similar reasons. French psychologists suggest that fatherhood is determined by society not by biology.

http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?...held-in-france

Wow, that woman is an awful human being.

Yeah, but at least she's more honest (or self-aware) than the women who have written some of the academic bioethics articles that I've read which agree with her.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Well overly emotional responses aside, I find it really, really odd that France would ban DNA testing of the population at a voluntary level. It seems most absurd. Are they afraid they are just a product of "general European DNA" with nothing uniquely "French" about them? I can't think of any reason to limit this sort of thing that makes even the remotest sense unless the law was just a poorly thought out law by people who thought that population DNA testing would somehow be the same as knowing everyone genetic diseases and personal traits or some nonsense.

This law may actually "make sense" when you look at the last 500 years of French history and all the troubles French kings and governments had with trying to deal with a patchwork of ethnic and social backgrounds within their borders. The whole concept of "La Republique," of one France, one language (and one accent oficiel), one culture is a very aggressive post-revolutionary concept to try and whitewash everything within France and French history that doesn't fit the narrative of the almost "Manifest Destiny"-like status quo enforced by French policymakers for at least the last 150 years.

This is an excellent book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Peasants-into-.../dp/0804710139

Anyway, I would speculate as you and the OP have, that the French government may not want to risk starting a genetic database of "Frenchmen" for fear of sabotaging this grand social engineering project of ethnic inclusion they've embarked on for two centuries or more. It would certainly fall in line with the deliberately monolithic education system, Revolutionary lore not unlike the American obsession with "the Founders," and absolute intolerance of any accent or language other than Parisian French.

[Copperknickers II]

Oh for f-sake poor men - give me a f-k break away and they never have to carry a baby or give birth or deal with an abortion. Honestly cry me a river. What a law biased toward women oh no maybe it's just 10,000 years of payback.

It takes 2 for that so really the also protects men who are sleeping around and could be forced to pay support... or get a kid out of their one fling.

So then its doubly bad. What it basically does, is allow women to steal men's children from them, by letting the woman tell whatever man she sees fit that he is the father.

The moral of the story is, if you're ever in France, make sure to only sleep with woman of a different race to yourself if you want to be sure her child is yours. That, and pay an illegal bioengineering lab to make all of your sperms ginger.

[Heathen Hammer]

Oh for f-sake poor men - give me a f-k break away and they never have to carry a baby or give birth or deal with an abortion. Honestly cry me a river. What a law biased toward women oh no maybe it's just 10,000 years of payback.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Men shouldn't be forced to support a child, that doesn't belong to them. Feminism is just another form of gender discrimination anyways.

[Taiji]

Feminism is just another form of gender discrimination anyways.

Was that meant to be a joke?

[Heathen Hammer]

Was that meant to be a joke?

How could I forget, only women and minorities can be discriminated against.

[Col. Tartleton]

Fatherhood is determined by society not by biology. I agree with the French. However I think a man should have access to some basic knowledge and a say in which children are his.

[Diocle]

The odd thing is that in Europe these tests are allowed so any French citizen in few hours can go in Belgium, Spain, Italy, Britain, Germany and wherever he wants and there he can take his idiotic genetic test ...

[sumskilz]

The odd thing is that in Europe these tests are allowed so any French citizen in few hours can go in Belgium, Spain, Italy, Britain, Germany and wherever he wants and there he can take his idiotic genetic test ...

Yes, so say for example he does so and finds out the baby his wife just had is not biologically his, he's still legally the father and legally obligated unless the wife consents to a test and it is court ordered.

Genetic tests are idiotic?

[Diocle]

Genetic tests are idiotic?

Yes, from any perspective they are idiotic and dangerous, apart the medical issues and the analysis of paternity, this because I find that many companies all around the world are exploiting the genetics of human beings and animals and natural environments to make their damn f...... interests, I find that too many idiots are building laughable historical theories based on the genetics instead of using archaeology and sources, as should be done to have any serious historical research, I find that genetics may become a tool in the hands of the leading classes and of their minions, our politicians, to divide people inside the single country and to divide peoples on strategic scale, I find that my genetics characteristics are mine and not of the State or of any f..... disgusting Chemical company.

[sumskilz]

Yes, from any perspective they are idiotic and dangerous, apart the medical issues and the analysis of paternity, this because I find that many companies all around the world are exploiting the genetics of human beings and animals and natural environments to make their damn f...... interests, I find that too many idiots are building laughable historical theories based on the genetics instead of using archaeology and sources, as should be done to have any serious historical research, I find that genetics may become a tool in the hands of the leading classes and of their minions, our politicians, to divide people inside the single country and to divide peoples on strategic scale, I find that my genetics characteristics are mine and not of the State or of any f..... disgusting Chemical company.

Archaeologists use genetics as well, and in fact several of the companies that do personal genomics (to make money for their own benefit) have done us a great favor by documenting their procedures and sampling up to standards that make them useful to a scientist. A great deal of the phylogeny of haplogroups was made possible by these companies since they've allowed people access to their genomes in a way that thousands of individuals can choose to make portions public for scientific research. Sometimes the population geneticists over-estimate their ability to look into the past, sometimes their data is good but their analysis is flawed, sometimes they are wrong and their predictions have to be adjusted in light of ancient DNA samples, but we would have almost no framework with which to evaluate ancient DNA samples if it weren't for what they've outlined. In fact the personal genomics companies have done us great service while looking out for their own interests, if it wasn't for their desire to maximize prophets and attract as many customers as possible, we wouldn't have the technology that allows us to test a million SNPs for about $50 dollars, it's still be costing us something like $10,000. It's been the non profit National Geographic Society that has been most stingy with not publishing all their data, which would be tremendously useful.

Why don't you give me an example of one of these "laughable historical theories" geneticists have come up with. I'm sure you had something in mind that could be interesting.

[Diocle]

Archaeologists use genetics as well, and in fact several of the companies that do personal genomics (to make money for their own benefit) have done us a great favor by documenting their procedures and sampling up to standards that make them useful to a scientist. A great deal of the phylogeny of haplogroups was made possible by these companies since they've allowed people access to their genomes in a way that thousands of individuals can choose to make portions public for scientific research. Sometimes the population geneticists over-estimate their ability to look into the past, sometimes their data is good but their analysis is flawed, sometimes they are wrong and their predictions have to be adjusted in light of ancient DNA samples, but we would have almost no framework with which to evaluate ancient DNA samples if it weren't for what they've outlined. In fact the personal genomics companies have done us great service while looking out for their own interests, if it wasn't for their desire to maximize prophets and attract as many customers as possible, we wouldn't have the technology that allows us to test a million SNPs for about $50 dollars, it's still be costing us something like $10,000. It's been the non profit National Geographic Society that has been most stingy with not publishing all their data, which would be tremendously useful.

Why don't you give me an example of one of these "laughable historical theories" geneticists have come up with. I'm sure you had something in mind that could be interesting.

Balkans. Never read anything more laughable than the innumerable theories based on genetics about the historical changes in the composition and developments of human groups in the Balkan region.

Moreover, the point is that the genetic heritage means nothing.

Human cultures are cultural products, who cares if the Chatti or the Chamavi or the Bructerii were Germans or Gauls, the important point is the development of their cultural 'facies', which is not based on blood, the important point is their historical choices which built their identity that lasted till they were absorbed in the big Federation of tribes named 'Franks', who cares about the percentage of Gallic blood in the tribal nation of the 'Franks' , who cares about the genome of the people living in Gaul that at some point decided to call themselves not Franks but 'French, what's the matter of genetic in the development of the French national identity, from those ancient tribes who have chosen the collective name of Franks, and then began to call themselves French, only a bunch of nostalgic Nazis still believes that the composition of blood makes history.

History is not made by genetics, it's is made by the social developments of human groups, who cares about the composition of the genetics heritage of the Germans or of the Turks? Nor Germans, nor Turks existed until the social economical developments of their human groups and of that of the territories in which they were living, generated the birth of the historical notion of 'Germanism' or that of 'Ottoman Empire'.
Who cares if the Cornuti or the Brachiati were Gauls serving in the Late Roman Army or Germans serving in the Roman Army? What is important it is that they fought till the end for Rome, and they fought damn well! The ethnic origin of these units is irrelevant, inside the great historical organism of the Late Roman Empire.

Who cares about the infinite changes in the genetics of the human beings, they have never influenced the historical development of human race. Who cares about the percentage of African blood in Mr. Obama's genome, the main point is that Mr. Obama is the President of the United States of America, the fact that probably his ancestors were Africans is absolutely meaningless, if we are not Nazis, of course ....
Do you think that the African genetics percentage can influence the Afro-American soldiers in war? Are they less efficient because of the composition of their blood? For you the percentage of Hispanic blood in the genome of a guy who died for the USA in Iraq, actually makes his personal history different from the other guys who died for the same national flag and whose genome was the Anglo Saxon genome?

Who cares about genetics in human history?

The others, the Chemical companies (Monsanto?), at least, are making money on genetics, stealing the human genetic heritage, to make their f...... business and their commercial crap. Probably it's the old story: the smart guys need the idiots to make their business happy and free ...

[Phier]

I saw this billboard locally. I thought it was kinda amusing. Who would have thought it may become another symbol of American Freedom over the European collective.

[Copperknickers II]

I saw this billboard locally. I thought it was kinda amusing. Who would have thought it may become another symbol of American Freedom over the European collective.

Is this your sister by any chance, Phier?

France is a strange and mysterious place. This is the country after all that promoted Lamarckian evolution, Continental philosophy, and the French language, over Darwinism, Postmodern analyticalism and the English language respectively. They also managed to make their capital city look exactly the same today as it did in 1800, whilst simultaneously building a large metal mobile phone mast, 100 years before the invention of the mobile phone, right in the middle of it, because they knew that London was planning to have no controls whatsoever on what style of buildings were built, excepting the fact that there were to be no ridiculous tall buildings. Their sole 'raison d'etre' (as they would say) is to discredit and supercede everything and anything that Britain does, even if that means doing the exact opposite of what makes sense.

This is why Americans can't understand the concept of Europe: imagine if Quebec were in the middle of the USA and was 10 times larger, and you're some way to seeing just how wrong the word 'Europe', with its connotations of some kind of cooperative, generally coherent cultural entity, is. Now imagine that the Ku Klux Klan staged a coup in Texas, and from there invaded and occupied all of the contiguous USA for several years, until they were beaten back with help from Russia. And now imagine that every single one of your states has a different language to the others. Imagine that the Bible Belt was the most economically productive and politically powerful grouping in North America. And finally, imagine that your state, the small, plucky outsider (Alaska, perhaps), in between ruling the entire rest of the world, has led the rest of the ungrateful, sexually deviant contiguous Americans out of the squalor and filth they were living in, and into the future, only to be constantly attacked by the Russians for being 'Bible Bashing Quebecans'. Then you will realise the reality of being British.

What was the topic again? Oh yes. The French need to join the civilised world and mend their sexually deviant ways.

[Phier]

Is this your sister by any chance, Phier?

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=aZkRJJnc6BUC

[fkizz]

Based sumskills delivering again. I learned of this law a few months ago, got equally surprised.

Add to that the culture of adultery that france has, and we're building a powder keg in france.

Then people wonder why characters such as marine le pen wins. That country really is strange, and full of tensions we rarely hear outside that express themselves in laws like this.

What's more amazing is people thinking this is progress. Guess how many of them will belong to SJW tumblr leftists type group?

PS - funny how such movements in rejectal of genetics and etc, end up being openly anti-science for the sake of their political agenda.