Disparity in units

[Summary]

Certain obvious disparities are present in this mod.

Playing as Sparta you quickly realize, that your pikes are useless even from the front. You also realize that your hoplites like vanilla are useless too. You also realize that your infantry are over priced. Basically I am paying the same recruitment and upkeep for a late game so-called elite sword unit that performs not even half as good as an early game Roman unit. Any reason for such bias towards Rome? Rome won in history doesn't mean their soldiers were Gods they had many losses. They won because they could sustain the war effort with their model of economy. Rome was a Republic, with many generals fighting on multiple fronts. Rome was a nation. Most of their adversaries were a coalition of tribes that often fought against each other more often than they did against Rome, they barely saw eye to eye. This is why Rome won, because of their foreign policies, logistics, and generals. Not because they were better warriors or had weapons that performed 4-5 times better than their adversaries.

The only reason I win battle decisively is because I used cavalry to shock and rout armies. My hoplites and pikes usually average about 1-10 kills per battle per unit, my cavalry averages around 200-300 per unit! Missiles average reasonably in between at around 40-100 per unit.

Also if an enemy charges up to my pike wall, they do not die. Unless I order my pikes to engage. In the vanilla version of the game this happened automatically. In DeI when you order your pikes to attack back, they break formation! Outright ridiculous. I like the version of DeI, but the battles are a bigger fall from Rome 2 vanilla. So I stick to auto-resolves despite winning decisively always if I manually play. It's just not fun to have to do all the killing with your cavalry, where are pikemen and hoplites serve as nothing more than an inanimate wall.

Recruiting swordsmen isn't even a viable option because none of Sparta's swordsmen can keep up with other nations. Sparta had some of the best swordsmen, they used the Spartan Lokonian Short Sword, which is much like the Gladius if not better. It was used in the same way in close quarters for stabbing at the enemy. It is funny to see how Spartan swords in DeI have melee attack 28, damage 19 and deadliness 4, compared to Roman melee attack 65, damage 39, deadliness 16? What are the Romans using? Lightsabers???!!

Credit to the modders for an amazing job, but the balance is simply way out of whack. I am in turn 73 already have the first reforms, and I still can't recruit a Spartan unit. I am sure Spartan hoplites were a thing before pikemen! They were the core of the army, granted they did use helots and periokoi as auxiliary units. It is also funny to see that a unit of super heavy hoplites loses on a head to head with a medium hoplite (and I mean no outflanking not other unusual benefits like experience, armor, etc.). I mean seriously aren't heavy units supposed to butcher lighter infantry let alone lose to them???!!!

In vanilla hoplites were still useless but at least they served as a decent missile screen. In DeI they can't even do that!! I am sorry for the rant but this is really ridiculous! The reason I play Sparta and Macedon and other Hellenic factions is because I like spear units and would like to actually see them kill something for a change.

P.S. Persian spearmen outperform hoplites! Roflmao! Warriors with wicker shields and shorter spears, with cloth armor, defeated bronze clad men, with longer spears and a bronze shield! Cheaaa okay!!! *rolls eyes*

[Arimnestos]

For starters what difficulty are you playing on?

[KAM 2150]

WUt? Hoplites own anything unless you are not playing on higher difficulties. It is funny how often someone creates a thread that DeI hoplites are useless, then two days later someone will make a thread why hoplites are OP, then we have another thread why Romans are OP, and again, few days later, why Romans are weaker then anyone and can't own anything

[A_I]

is not easy work to balance from all nations all untis between them... It`s really hard, and IF even are some mistakes i understand this.

From other hand DRE wrote that balance of units will be working after 0.9 upgrade and before MAIN Version.


I think u forget we play a beta ver of this mod... ;]

[ma_251]

Probably you are playing your battles on hard or greater difficulty which is making enemy stats go up than stated.

[Summary]

Probably you are playing your battles on hard or greater difficulty which is making enemy stats go up than stated

I play on normal difficulty because I read somewhere that DeI is meant to be played on normal difficulty. I selected this option in the campaign selection menu. Is there a separate setting for battle difficulty that might be adding some bonuses to the AI? Also still doesn't matter as I said check out the stats.

Spartan swords: Melee Attack 28, Weapon Damage 19, Weapon Deadliness 4
Roman Praetorian: Melee Attack 65, Weapon Damage 35, Weapon Deadliness 16

Give me a Lakonian Short Sword and a Gladius, I am sure I can kill a man with both .... makes no sense how the Roman's are getting a boost!

is not easy work to balance from all nations all untis between them... It`s really hard, and IF even are some mistakes i understand this.

From other hand DRE wrote that balance of units will be working after 0.9 upgrade and before MAIN Version.


I think u forget we play a beta ver of this mod... ;]

Wait so this is only a beta, and that's why the balance is out of whack? So when is the MAIN version being released?

[Scythion]

So when is the MAIN version being released?

When its done.

[antred]

atter as I said check out the stats.
Spartan swords: Melee Attack 28, Weapon Damage 19, Weapon Deadliness 4
Roman Praetorian: Melee Attack 65, Weapon Damage 35, Weapon Deadliness 16

Those statistics are nonsense. If that's really what you're getting in the game then your install must be messed up. Roman heavy infantry usually have weapon damage 10 - 13 and deadliness 5.

[meerkatology]

take a look at the other posts first, lots of balance issues exist and are known, hopefully 0.9 will fix most of them, otherwise just mod it yourself like the rest of us to play underpowered factions.

on a sidenote, sparta isn't bad.

shortswords and gladius are both worthless yes, this is a known issue. low initiative units suck.

sparta's hoplites are the best of its kind and greeks also get a ton of upgrades for them. barbs and eastern factions get very little infantry upgrades for instance.

in vanilla DEI hoplites destroy roman infantry, thier gladius sux just as much as your shortswords

[KAM 2150]

Bro, you have a mod conflict, there is no unit in DeI with attack even above 50 and your pretorians have it on 65! Not to mention weapon damage and deadliness (max 5 in DeI) that high.

[Summary]

http://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/...aetorian_Guard

[KAM 2150]

Those are outdated stats ; )

No unit in DeI has so high stats. Current max for deadliness is 5, and armour around 55.

[Don_Diego]

Oh and why on earth should spartan swords mach the Roman Praetorians? I do not think Spartan swords are their most elite units...

[Summary]

Cause Spartans were in fact as the efficient with the sword as they were with spears. People are under the assumption that Spartan's only used spears. Spartans were as adept at using the stabbing blade as the Romans, if not better! Spartans unlike most Greeks were trained to fight in close quarter combat. Traditional Greek armies used hoplites to gain reach (initiative) against the opponent. Basically, the hoplite phalanx was like a mass fencing match, where both phalanx did not physically collide shields but rather kept a safe distance, trying to reach out into vulnerable, exposed regions of the enemy formation (also the concept of reach is why the Macedonian phalangite was more effective against the Greek hoplite phalanx). Spartans did not rely heavily on reach, the often preferred to close the gap.

There are famous quotes on Spartans preferring to fight up close.

1. When one Athenian mocked that Lakonian swords were so short a juggler could swallow them, King Apis III replied, "But nevertheless, we still strike our enemies with them."
2. When King Agesilaos was asked why the Lakonian swords were so short he replied, "Because we fight close to the enemy."
3. According to the ancient Greek historian, Plutarch, there was once a Spartan soldier, who upon being informed that he should consider painting an emblem onto his shield, spent hours painstakingly painting a tiny, life-sized fly onto it. The Spartan's peers were absolutely astonished to see so much effort going into something an enemy would likely never see and watched their comrade intently as he continued to add layer after layer of detail to his tiny fly. Eventually, curiosity and a good deal of anger got the better of the crowd of Spartans and they finally confronted him about why he'd spent so long painting a tiny fly onto the front of his shield. They asked how he ever expected his enemies to know he was a fierce enemy, if his shield sported such a tiny emblem. The Spartan, without missing a beat calmly motioned towards his shield and said "that fly may be tiny to you, but it will be the size of a lion to my enemies when I smash it into their stupid faces!"

[KAM 2150]

By the time of Rome 2, the glory of Sparta was just a shadow of it's former self with main problem being lack of Spartans in Sparta, especially after Sellasia. Not to mention the defeat from the Theban Sacred Band at the battle of Tegyra, where Lacedomonians had huge numerical advantage.

Still, hoplite phalanx in DeI simply crushes roman legions, hence I can't see your claim that mod team has bias towards legionares...

[JObadiah]

Honga's DeI stats are a bizarre mixture of up-to-date accurate and wildly outdated. Do not trust them.

Rom_Praetorians: Melee Attack 30 (Damage 13, Deadliness 5, Initiative 0), Charge 18, Melee Defense 43 (20 shield), Morale 80, hp 67, Armor 54 (22 shield)

Gre_Spartan_Sword: Melee Attack 28 (Damage 15, Deadliness 4, Initiative 0), Charge 16, Melee Defense 39 (20 shield), Morale 75, hp 67, Armor 50 (20 shield)

Rom_Legionaries: Melee Attack 26 (Damage 10, Deadliness 5, Initiative 0), Charge 24, Melee Defense 38 (20 shield), Morale 60, hp 63, Armor 52 (22 shield)

Yes, the Praetorians are superior. Praetorians are also the best of Rome's best, at a time in history when Rome's standard soldiers are drilled professionals very much like the Spartans, whereas the Spartan sword unit is made up of 'average' Spartans (and, note, is superior to the standard legionary unit).

If you find your hoplites getting chewed up, you're probably not engaging their hoplite phalanx ability. ALL hoplite units in DeI are balanced around the use of this ability, and the AI uses it automatically. Always check your hoplites after they start fighting to make sure it's activated, as if your units charge they disengage the ability (in DeI you can activate/re-activate it while your hoplites are fighting).

[honga]

Hi JObadiah:


The units stats incorrect problem, because of some Dei db key conflict with vanilla db.
it's my fault.


And now the problem Fixed, thank you for your report.
If there are any problems with DeI Database on my site,
Please feel free to send me a message.


Thank you

[JObadiah]

Looks like you fixed everything. This should certainly help stall the onslaught of "omg what is wrong with this mod's unit stats" threads.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Their was a massive thread started by meerkat last week about how crazy OP hoplites were. I wouldn't blame the Devs for facepalming when people come onto these forums shouting such widely different conclusions.

[Creslin49]

It is debatable whether the praetorians in this games time frame were actually Romes best fighters. It was a cushier job than being up on the Rhine for sure. And until the middle empire they were only italians I think, so they were the best of the italians, not the best of the best.

I think the Rome benefits too much in this game by getting tons of elite units to recruit that were really only elite because they were veterans, and then the game allows them to gain xp and become veteran veterans and they end up OP. Rome also benefits from how many tech upgrades it gets, most roman players and the AI if it survives are fighting with middle empire legionaires by 200BC, when in real life Rome has only has its polybian units through this games realistic timeframe.

But ya in DEI its the hoplites that are truly the beasts atm, any 2 initiative hoplite will give even a far more expensive gladius unit a tough fight, and lots of times win. Pikes can be good but they are more realistically balanced, and the AI is terrible at keeping formation in this game so they end up pretty terrible, which is kinda sad since those big pike phalanxes were historically superior to the hoplite phalanx I think.