[Discussion] What to do with the "Abolish the CdeC" bill?

[Aikanár]

Alright, let's discuss this. The vote of the "Abolish the CdeC" bill has been compromised. I don't say, it is invalid, because there is no such clause in the Constitution. What has been done is, that the results of the on-going vote have been published to a couple of citizens off of TWC. Those citizens have been asked to cast their vote in favour of said bill.

That is what we know and can prove.

What we don't know and what we cannot prove is what effect this request might have had on the citizens it was addressed to. Or in other words, there is no way we can possibly tell whether the request might have influenced the people to cast their vote in a different way than like they would have done without it.

Also, we cannot prove whether the vote of the bill would have failed in case we could prove that people changed their initial decision how to vote because of the request made off of TWC.

So basically, we cannot prove, in any way, whether the request might have had an effect on the vote at all. There is just no way to find out.

So what shall we do?

As Wangrin has put it, we're left with several choices, we could:

- have a vote on whether we want to leave everything as it is or whether we want to take action
- amend the constitution to revert it to the state as it was before the "Abolish the CdeC" bill
- do nothing

We have no constitutional right to just declare the vote invalid. We also have no possibility to pass a decision that would declare the vote invalid since the vote was not about a decision but about an amendment.

Also, regardless of what we do, there is no retroactive effect of that. The constitution is absolutely clear about that, changes are not retroactive as long as there is no such clause added to such a change.

So, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the matter at hand before shooting proposals from the hip.

I've added a poll that does not expire and is anonymous, in order that we can find out about the preferences of people who might not like to post here.

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That being said, my personal opinion is, that the positive effects the "Abolish the CdeC" bill by far outmatch a possible and not provable rigging whos effect cannot even be proven.

I'm for keeping everyhting as it is.

[Genius of the Restoration]

What to do?

Nothing, because it's as valid as it would ever be. There was no rigging and nothing untoward about someone asking people to vote for it. Who cares?

[La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham]

Do nowt...Teething troubles happen, move on from the experience and learn from it!
and all that

[jimkatalanos]

Do nothing. I agree with GeD

In the end, the people who voted are responsible for their own votes. You cant prove they would have voted any differently had this never happened. To assume they would have is to assume they have no minds of their own, and if that is the case then every single one of them should be removed from the Curia anyways.

[mishkin]

And new citizens out and the votes of the new citizens in past polls out. Too many complications in my opinion.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

The CdeC's liquidation was a long time coming. The steps taken towards boosting the general membership's involvement in things was the right one. As with anything new, there will be a teething process involved, and it's gonna take a little time to master this new inovation and get things running smoothly.

In the meantime grab a handful of diapers cuz things are going to be stinky for a while.

......

Do nothing about it, there's already plenty of other things that need tinkering with. Community Citizenship reviews are up and running and will settle in nicely when it's all said and done.

Citizenship diciplinary procedures will get fleshed out in time. Ishan took a bullet for the community, and that showed where the weakness' in the system are. Tinkering with that should keep the Curia busy for a while.

[Ybbon]

Leave it as is. I wasn't active when the abolish CdeC bill was voted on so all I saw was a fait accompli - and that's they way it should stay. We should learn some big lessons from this whole unedifying spectacle not to be repeated. Even assuming the other complexities were resolved, repeating the mistakes of CdeC would be an even bigger mistake.

Move on already.

[Bethencourt]

Lobbying is a small infraction in my opinion. It is more important the fact that people finally press the button they like. It would have been nicer if the poll was secret during it and after. But it seems, that seeing how many privileges to see it are arround, it is open for maybe half the voters while it is happening. As things normlly go, this has not been too different from normal votation.

[Sir Adrian]

Since this affects me directly and I have an interest in this I won't vote, but I will say this: the new system has been proven to work quite well, so any new vote would probably have the same result.

That being said should the curia decide that the bill is invalid and a return to the CdeC is in order I will voluntarily renounce citizenship and reapply before the CdeC

[s.rwitt]

There was no rigging and this place is much better off without the CdeC. Do nothing.

[wangrin]

As the sincerity of the poll has been compromised, it is necessary to reinstate some legitimacy, even if looking at screenshots previously posted show that the final gap between pro and cons was big enough, even removing those which sincerity can be considered as "doubtful" (no offence here, if someone can find a more appropriate definition in English, he/she is welcome).

So, this poll act as a kind of "second round".
If peoples vote "do nothing" it means that they ratify the previous poll result.
If they vote "Amend the "Abolish the CdeC" bill out of the Constitution" it is like voting for maintaining CdeC.

Of course, voting for "Have a vote to decide whether we should take action or not" is something in-between, opening for a 3rd round. Maybe for proposing new organization ?
And "I don't care one way or the other" is a kind of blank vote.


Good luck...

[mishkin]

That being said should the curia decide that the bill is invalid and a return to the CdeC is in order I will voluntarily renounce citizenship

Of course.

[Bethencourt]

I do not agree. Institutions decisions are in favor of the aplicants, no matter how mistaken the process was. If the decision is invalidated you have rights to be indemnified, but how it would be if it is not by giving you back citizenship. Over all this. CVRIA was convened to vote in every decision, and CdC are nothing but representatives of the CVRIA. If a decision to go back to the CdC happens, it should be voted considering that all rights are kept because they were given by the whole CVRIA, which is the body that takes the decisions directly or by representatives.

[Pontifex Maximus]

We must invest someone with emergency powers until the crisis has resolved itself.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

There is a vote on whether a re-vote should take place.

[Aikanár]

That is because you cannot have a revote on an implemented bill. You would first have to amend it out of the constitution, before you can have a revote on it.

To just have a revote on it would be unconstitutional.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Fair enough, ignore what I said.

[m_1512]

Do nothing.

There is not a shred of solid evidence that any rigging was done. The only evidence was that people were asked to vote. If this is deemed unconstitutional, then every bloody election campaign in RL politics should be deemed as one.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I vote we do nothing. Not just as relates to this, but in general. The Curia is historically pretty good at it.

All joking aside, the bill passed as a result of individuals making informed, or uninformed, decisions of their own volition and without being compelled. As Omni mentioned in Ishan's thread, to assume that this was the only case of vote lobbying ever to occur would be foolish, and policing it isn't a worthwhile endeavor. I would extend this even further though, and say that vote lobbying may well be a useful allowance. Curial participation on votes has always been piss poor, anything that gets more people voting for whatever they feel the right option is, however they come to that decision, is good in my book.

If someone was going to base their vote solely on the recommendation of someone else, without invoking any higher faculties, then what's the difference if they do so in response to a PM or off-site thread, versus just reading the supporter list on the discussion thread? Literally the only difference is one member checks the Curia of their own accord and the other doesn't. So the system is inherently biased towards pretend bureaucrats, which might explain why it's so pointlessly conservative. The only thing we should prevent is forced voting, such as if a moderator were to threaten to ban someone if they didn't vote a certain way, or other sorts of elbowing besides simple clout.

If convincing someone to vote a certain way is a crime, cuff me sheriff I've been naughty.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Keep everything as is, the site membership base and numbers have improved dramatically since the scrapping of CDEC. The pro's and the way things are speak for themselves. CDEC was by and large one of the more ridiculous institutions that this site suffered. Far too much petty politics and rivalries, and too many citizen applications turned down because of a bias and unfair ideal of 'upholding-standards'. Which was a complete farce. (I felt strongly about that body looking over their discussions a while back does that ).

So yep. As is, is good. Next thing would be ideally a relook at certain aspects of the constitution...