SiegeAI,CAI,BAI observations. More observations in post 30 that have been updated.

[DividingSolid]

I really like Rome II (over 500 hours) but the siege AI bothers me a lot. Today I fought a custom battle where I gave the AI 2 battering rams and 8 ladders. When the ladders burned the AI unit would stop; when my archers killed the guys that controlled the battering ram no one took it's place and instead units went into another gate to throw torches all while the 2nd battering ram wasn't used! I remember in Medieval II how the siege AI was flawed but it worked, they could reuse the equipment and was able to attack through any of the breaches.

[14182]

Just wish to know if there are any chances CA would bring the hooks 'n' ropes to R2TW

[ABH2]

Not actually , I am a man of details. Since patch 10 atleast AI attacked with torches -and WHEN AI had two armies-in two gates or more!
In that case i see no improvement.

I figured you meant one army attacked two gates. The only time I've seen the AI attack from multiple points during a walled siege was with reinforcements. I'm assuming that's still the case then.

I think that would be the biggest help they could give the AI. Attacking from multiple points at least makes things a little more interesting.

Before the topic was purged, I recall someone posting something on 8 units being able to withstand 16 at a choke point. I see nothing wrong with that depending on the troops in question. In real life, a determined, experienced/trained defending force that couldn't be flanked. There's a reason fortified towns were usually only left garrisoned by a few hundred men. They could hold out until reinforcements arrived or fend off an attack completely. You also have very famous and obvious examples of choke points being used such as at Thermopylae.

The problem isn't that aspect of sieges. It's just the incompetent AI which seems to be the result of pathfinding. Even as a human player sieges tend to require a higher degree of micromanagement and individual orders as troops will do weird things. This was true in Shogun 2, as well, from my experience but easier to hide given the wall climbing mechanic.

[AnthoniusII]

Just wish to know if there are any chances CA would bring the hooks 'n' ropes to R2TW

That would be interesting and kind of realistic for "north european barbarian factions"! I explain..Those people did not have field or siege artilery in their disposal.
So rams ,ladders and ropes (ropes against other barbarion walls) should be their siege tools!

Patch 13 was a compatibility patch for the new factions. There is no code about siege. Why would you test it with siege?

We test the game in every single patch no matter the actuall changes/fixes it brings. Without testing and proofs no one has the right to critise or poaint of mistakes.

I figured you meant one army attacked two gates. The only time I've seen the AI attack from multiple points during a walled siege was with reinforcements. I'm assuming that's still the case then.

I think that would be the biggest help they could give the AI. Attacking from multiple points at least makes things a little more interesting.

Before the topic was purged, I recall someone posting something on 8 units being able to withstand 16 at a choke point. I see nothing wrong with that depending on the troops in question. In real life, a determined, experienced/trained defending force that couldn't be flanked. There's a reason fortified towns were usually only left garrisoned by a few hundred men. They could hold out until reinforcements arrived or fend off an attack completely. You also have very famous and obvious examples of choke points being used such as at Thermopylae.

The problem isn't that aspect of sieges. It's just the incompetent AI which seems to be the result of pathfinding. Even as a human player sieges tend to require a higher degree of micromanagement and individual orders as troops will do weird things. This was true in Shogun 2, as well, from my experience but easier to hide given the wall climbing mechanic.

I must admit that siege pathfinding is improved comparing to previus patches one! In early patches AI simply watched your settlement durring siege.
The next improvent was to deploy ladders that never used.
Then those ladders managed to reach walls and finally in patch 12 units can actually use them for a while because AI still aims to gates sucrifising its units!
Possible solutions would be:
1: Make AI wait a turn (like RTW1) and when they would assault they could have at least 8 ladders and 1-2 rams and 1-2 galeries.(That way units with galeries can reach gates under some safety and cause fire damage. 2 2nd attack on same gate with ram will brake faster the gates!
Ofcourse pathfinding and AI must get furhter improvents. AI must not stop ussing ladders after 1-2 units use of them!
I find nothing wrong of defending with less units in chock points either. That is why there are the chocking points anyway. What CA must achieve is to give AI alternatives when they will exist (read RTW1 siege description).

[PointOfViewGun]

We test the game in every single patch no matter the actuall changes/fixes it brings. Without testing and proofs no one has the right to critise or poaint of mistakes.

It's just pointless to test it after a patch that has nothing to do with what you're testing about. You could as well test the game after the next 24 episode.

[14182]

That would be interesting and kind of realistic for "north european barbarian factions"! I explain..Those people did not have field or siege artilery in their disposal.
So rams ,ladders and ropes (ropes against other barbarion walls) should be their siege tools!

After reading some related threads these few months, I suspect the wall climbing feature was removed because there were many S2TW players complained about the feature on the official forum.

Since there were about 15% of an unit would be dead because of fallen down from wall, the players argued that has given a definite advantage to the defending side and suggested CA to script the attacking AI to burn down the gate more frequently as the siege equipments were somehow useless/unmovable (Yes, the torches in fact have been introduced in S2TW but the BAI seldom used it based on what I have read).

Obviously, CA has taken this feedback into account and decided to remove the ropes from R2TW, however the defending side gets even bigger advantage now because the arrow towers are on the walls (most of them were placed inside the castle in S2TW) and almost all attacking units will move toward the same chokepoint (the gate).

It would be fun if they havn't removed the ropes and keep the mechanic as same as S2TW. So, the attacking side may decide to climb up the wall directly by ropes which will cause more casualties, or use other siege equipments to ensure most of the men can make it to the top of the walls.

[PointOfViewGun]

Patch 13 was a compatibility patch for the new factions. There is no code about siege. Why would you test it with siege?

[AngryTitusPullo]

Deleted some posts not related to the discussion related to OP experience in Patch 13.

Keep it on topic (no, CA staff got fired is not on topic).

[billydilly]

What would happen if EVERY unit had some sort of siege equipment? Something like if every unit had a ladder, tower or a ram, so that they couldn't use torches. Make the do something else than play with fire

[Barritus]

I don't think there were any AI updates in the latest patch. If there were I would think CA would announce it in the notes so that the public is aware they're working on it given the bad press the AI gets.

[anktonio]

It is not credible that the besiegers (human or machine) in walled cities could win an assault without numerical superiority in proportion of 5-1 minimum.
It is not credible that the besieged out of ammo.
A lot more...

[AnthoniusII]

The question that still remains...
Does ANY of the CA members that visit TWC ever take a look in threads like this?
I have seen answers of theirs for music, wallpapers and other insignificant issues but NEVER an answer of theirs for critical issues like CAI/BAI/SAI etc!

[Totalheadache]

The question that still remains...
Does ANY of the CA members that visit TWC ever take a look in threads like this?
I have seen answers of theirs for music, wallpapers and other insignificant issues but NEVER an answer of theirs for critical issues like CAI/BAI/SAI etc!

Personnally I have pretty much given up all hope. You never know though but it's looking like it's gonna take a miracle...

P.S thats one thing I found when playing. AI armies dying due to hunger seems like the ability to manage this correctly is defunct.

[BunnyPoopCereal]

The question that still remains...
Does ANY of the CA members that visit TWC ever take a look in threads like this?
I have seen answers of theirs for music, wallpapers and other insignificant issues but NEVER an answer of theirs for critical issues like CAI/BAI/SAI etc!

Probably not because they must think its a waste of time and a headache.

[osros]

The question that still remains...
Does ANY of the CA members that visit TWC ever take a look in threads like this?
I have seen answers of theirs for music, wallpapers and other insignificant issues but NEVER an answer of theirs for critical issues like CAI/BAI/SAI etc!

Same as in other forum, They cherry pick safe questions to answer or just random non sense from Will (love ya!) Any talk of CAI, BAI, SAI is too hard and taboo, ignore it and hopefully it will go away.

[fws2468]

Yesterday I still observed some problem with the siege AI. The Spartan enemy attacked my walled settlement with 2 armies. The first approached with 4 ladders, 3 were destroyed and only one made it to the wall and started doing a jiggly dance. The enemy unit just hung around the ladder to get shot to pieces by my towers while its comrades stood far away having an indefinite siesta. Meanwhile, the other enemy army burned down a gate from another side and captured that gatetower. It proceeded to attack my garrison but was destroyed. Now I could forgive the AI if it failed to go up the remaining ladder but at least proceed to the open gate which was very far from my garrison, but instead, it continued with its siesta. If there was a battle timer, I would have won. But with no timer, there was no way my depleted units could have beaten a full Spartan army in open battle and I lost that one. So as far as I'm concerned, siege AI is still broken.

[Aenima]

Unbelievably, I have to agree with Setekh on this one. Why are you reviewing siege AI after patch 13 when, apparently, patch 13 has nothing to do with the siege AI? I can understand being annoyed that it doesn't actually have anything to improve when it comes to sieges, but I don't understand for the life of me why you seem to expect it to have improved sieges when it was never meant to.

It's like getting angry at a waiter for not giving you diamonds when he brings your meal to you in a restaurant. Why are you getting angry at him for something that everyone knows he doesn't do?

[Totalheadache]

Unbelievably, I have to agree with Setekh on this one. Why are you reviewing siege AI after patch 13 when, apparently, patch 13 has nothing to do with the siege AI? I can understand being annoyed that it doesn't actually have anything to improve when it comes to sieges, but I don't understand for the life of me why you seem to expect it to have improved sieges when it was never meant to.

It's like getting angry at a waiter for not giving you diamonds when he brings your meal to you in a restaurant. Why are you getting angry at him for something that everyone knows he doesn't do?

I think it's more of a case of people continuing to express their disappointment that after 13 patches siege a.i is still a game breaker.

more to the point is this rather than they didnt specifically mention sieges.

we all realise this but doesnt stop people from commenting that it's still broken!

p.s one can review any part of the game after any patch if one chooses to do so. yes you might argue it's unfair to specifically concentrate on one area but as this is a pretty big thing you cant help but understand peoples irritation.

[Aenima]

I think it's more of a case of people continuing to express their disappointment that after 13 patches siege a.i is still a game breaker.

more to the point is this rather than they didnt specifically mention sieges.

we all realise this but doesnt stop people from commenting that it's still broken!

p.s one can review any part of the game after any patch if one chooses to do so. yes you might argue it's unfair to specifically concentrate on one area but as this is a pretty big thing you cant help but understand peoples irritation.

But the OP makes it clear that he's checking out the siege performance after patch 13, implying it was intended to improve it

Improvements comparing other patches.
NONE.

I get being frustrated with the siege AI (I don't think I've fought a single siege defence of a minor settlement where I've been attacked from all directions, nor can I think of a single siege assault in which the AI hasn't left at least one road completely undefended and allowed me to flank them) The thing is that this thread seems to be arguing that patch 13 didn't improve it (see the above quote) and, as Setekh has pointed out, this is a moot point since P13 doesn't seem to have had any pretensions to do so.

Like I said, OP seems to be complaining that patch 13 didn't bring about an improvement in an area that patch 13 didn't set out to improve. I agree that one can be annoyed that they perform so badly after so many patches, but to compare how they play now vs pre-patch 13 is pointless for the explained reasons.


I honestly think that it would do some people a favour to just stop coming onto this part of the forum. Not everyone that's not happy, just those that seem utterly livid and convinced things will never improve. I get that people come here to hear how things are going, checking up in the hope of things improving etc, but to consistently make posts to the tune of "this game sucks, AI sucks, gameplay sucks, diplomacy sucks, CA sucks, it all sucks and will never be good" and so on just seems pointless. If people truly despise this game, are disappointed by it, can't get any enjoyment from it and/or are convinced that it will never be any good they should just stop coming and posting here, it makes absolutely no sense to get worked up, angry and get into e-arguments over nothing.

[Huberto]

The thing is that this thread seems to be arguing that patch 13 didn't improve it (see the above quote) and, as Setekh has pointed out, this is a moot point since P13 doesn't seem to have had any pretensions to do so.

Like I said, OP seems to be complaining that patch 13 didn't bring about an improvement in an area that patch 13 didn't set out to improve. I agree that one can be annoyed that they perform so badly after so many patches, but to compare how they play now vs pre-patch 13 is pointless for the explained reasons.

I honestly think that it would do some people a favour to just stop coming onto this part of the forum. Not everyone that's not happy, just those that seem utterly livid and convinced things will never improve. I get that people come here to hear how things are going, checking up in the hope of things improving etc, but to consistently make posts to the tune of "this game sucks, AI sucks, gameplay sucks, diplomacy sucks, CA sucks, it all sucks and will never be good" and so on just seems pointless. If people truly despise this game, are disappointed by it, can't get any enjoyment from it and/or are convinced that it will never be any good they should just stop coming and posting here, it makes absolutely no sense to get worked up, angry and get into e-arguments over nothing.

I could not disagree with this perspective more.

Threads like these are very useful. As you note, many of us still check in to see if things are getting fixed with this game. Whether patch 13 was a 'compatibility patch' or not. Turns out it wasn't just a compatibility patch. In any event, the OP's post isn't just about patch 13 or the siege AI. It's about checking in on the game and describing what is going on.

OP does us all a great service by continuing to register his findings here about the game. We rely on the feedback and CA still needs it. And yes, CA still comes here, not only to post DLC teasers but to see how folks are reacting to the game. So yes, enormously helpful.