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Thread: SiegeAI,CAI,BAI observations. More observations in post 30 that have been updated.

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  1. #1
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default SiegeAI,CAI,BAI observations. More observations in post 30 that have been updated.

    Observing BAI in patch 13 i must admit that few improvements espesialy when AI has inferior number of troops (not inferior quality of troops ).
    In such cases AI army tried to find high ground to defend better. In cases that the number of units -despite the diference in quality- AI simply waits the player to have the total control of the battlefield. I am playing in Hard and Very Hard dificulty.
    I also notticed that in sieges AI sents to gates more troops inorder to put gates on fire before these troops die (still a suicide never the less).
    In few cases AI starts ONLY with one ladder -instead of 4- espesialy when the settelent that defends is level 2!
    What changed in siege AI is an attack to a 2nd gate (diversion maybe?) with suicide tarche attack as well.
    Here is such an example:
    Me as defender in Hard dificulty.
    AI siege army of 18 units.
    One ladder available instead of 4.


    When the unit that has the ladder massacred AI sents 3 full units to set the gate on fire!
    In the meanwhile AI sents its only cavalry unit to set up on fire an other gate.


    Improvements comparing other patches.
    NONE.
    AI still uses torches only to destroy gates. Ussualy attacks another gate again with suicide attempts!
    The only "improvement" in this patch is that AI sucrifises more units at the same time to achieve the burning of a gate! In the end AI has less than half of its units to brake through gates!

    Reinforcements need to be fixed also!
    I explain my self.
    In M1TW, players could chose how and with what order reinforcements units would apear in battlefield when needed ( Viking Invasion expansion).
    In RTW1 player could chose if he would have reinforcements units under his command (enter battlefield when a unit retreated or lost) or AI would have the entire control of the oher armies!
    In that scenario AI could control up to 5 armies -3 enemy and 2 reinforcements- but player could not order thos armies atall!
    In M2TW with the last expansion player could :
    Chose if his reinforcements would apear under his DIRECT commands (one unit that enter battlefield for each unit that would lost) or AI could control reinforcements as well!
    The improvement that apeared was that Player in the last case still could command (field marshal) the AI controled reinforcement ARMIES to act :
    Defensively
    Agresivly
    Stay in safe distance and harrass the enemy with range volleys!

    In R2TW a player can have uo to 40 units under his commands (actually 2 armies)!
    He CAN NOT have any other entire army on the field!
    AI spawns units of multiple armies but it CAN NOT HAVE more than 40 units on the field.
    My curiocity expanded to PLAYER's siege!
    So 3 Legions (20 unit armies) siege a city with 12 units as guarisson, a full stack army and another one waiting as reinforcements!
    I select not to have 40 units but AI to control reinforcements.
    My reinforcements NEVER APEARED IN BATTLE untill a unit was lost and one unit apeared as reinforcement!
    AI defender's reinforcements apeared only when the defenders massacred but it was too late!
    In fact 6 armies were in that battle but only faught 3!
    If the game would be in RTW1 or M2TW the field would be full of armies spawing from everywhere!
    In th efollowing pic you can see (arrows) where game shown me my reinforcements would enter the battle!


    QUESTION TO CA DEVELOPERS:
    Is that the kind of AI you dream for R2?
    Opinion:
    Watching defends of cities with that crap AI of yours (see the 1st two pics) i can understand why your legioners do not use pilla in defence!
    In that case your inabillity would be MORE OBVIUS!

    More observations in post 30
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 214950_2014-05-27_00001.jpg   214950_2014-05-27_00002.jpg   214950_2014-05-28_00002.jpg  
    Last edited by SturmChurro; June 04, 2014 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Title changed
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    When you test the AI always test in normal dificulty or the AI gets bonuses.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Perfect review AnthoniusII!
    After 13 patches I don't think there is much more to say...
    Last edited by rafmc1989; May 29, 2014 at 08:12 AM.


  4. #4
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Pee_Alot View Post
    When you test the AI always test in normal dificulty or the AI gets bonuses.
    I test AI in hard or very hard. If AI gets bonuses in those levels where are they?????
    Quote Originally Posted by rafmc1989 View Post
    Perfect review AnthoniusII!
    After 13 patches I don't think there is much more to say...
    Unforthunatly my friend we will continue to have something to say for a long time as i don't see any real improvement!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Unforthunatly my friend we will continue to have something to say for a long time as i don't see any real improvement!
    You're right. I'm tired about that!


  6. #6
    Dynamo11's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    I think the reinforcement issue is CA's way to avoid it being glaringly obvious that their AI is insanely retarded, having 5 AI armies would surely exacerbate that problem. Still not surprised that even after all this time CA still haven't fixed sieges, and yet they are content with continuing to release DLC for it....


  7. #7

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    In Rome 1, when there were too many reinforcements, a little message would pop up saying "reinforcements have been delayed", or "reinforcements are late", if I remember correctly.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Causeless View Post
    In Rome 1, when there were too many reinforcements, a little message would pop up saying "reinforcements have been delayed", or "reinforcements are late", if I remember correctly.
    You had to have a certain option enabled, sometthing like unlimited units on battlefield or something, otherwise you'd get that message.

  9. #9
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Thanks for the review Anthonius! We have to admit that patch 13 was a compatibility patch most of all reasons, so I would be surprised if they made undocumented fixes on the AI, sometimes they already made undocumented changes though.
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  10. #10
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Our "obligation" as players is to point out issues that must be fixed. If anything goes better -no matter how insignificant that may be- we have to point it out too!
    Critisism is not FOR critisism. Is for doing things better!
    Some one asked me to observe battle lines as well! Running a patch 13 campaign i will try to do this.
    What CA made worst in anycase is that people like me can not enjoy a battle! Units are chaotic, do not fight unless you order them to do so (if a unit press an AI one to retreat , just stands steel watching the chaos arround it ! No matter the GREAT models and textures battles are not as enjoyble as they used to be!
    Having such a conversation with a friend of mine that he has not yet buy R2 but he has all previus TW games , we exchanged battle expiriences!
    I remember a battle in R1 having a legion (with the pilla able to be used in defence) but Guals had three expirient armies blocking my way to Massalia!
    The battle was in a forrest end with Guals hiding in it and my Legion in open plain! I remember how the expirient Guals cut down my legioners spawning from anywere !
    I lost but atleast i enjoyed the battle!
    In another battle my entire army was of steppe cavalry with maximum expirience after douzens of victories!
    Egyptians (remember those rediculus Pharaonic one that R1 had) blocked my way with two armies!
    I was fool enough to rely in my army's expirience because when i pressed the battle button to load it AI had two more armies hiding in forest!
    AI started with 2 armies and few minutes later the 3rd army apeared!
    I fought great but when those three armies started to lose units ,reinforcements of the 4th army replaced them!
    Battle was more or less of 40 minutes! It was one of my most glorius defeats! But i did not mind at all because i enjoyed the game!!!!
    Joy of the game is the huge lack of ROME 2!!!
    People "return" to M2TW and it's mods if that is saying something!!!!!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  11. #11
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    I fought one siege yesterday.

    And whilest the AI managed to get 4 ladders on the walls and 3 units to set fire to the gates, everything still suffers from one mistake.

    And entire army consisting of 16 units storms a recently opend gate, and for some weird reason 8 units in a bottled up position are able to keep them out??????????

  12. #12
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    I fought one siege yesterday.

    And whilest the AI managed to get 4 ladders on the walls and 3 units to set fire to the gates, everything still suffers from one mistake.

    And entire army consisting of 16 units storms a recently opend gate, and for some weird reason 8 units in a bottled up position are able to keep them out??????????
    That is what we all talk about! True! AI missing I (inteligence).
    I played hundreds of RTW1 sieges espesialy as defender !
    AI was not perfect (nothing ever is) but it was chalenging.
    Compare this battle of yours with a siege of mine (Hard difficulty) in RTW1.
    Two AI armies besiege my huge city.
    I have a full army as defenders.
    They have two full armies as attackers!
    No artilery pieces in any side (advance for defender).
    AI waits (in RTW2 AI never waits!) a turn and the next turn attacks.
    1st AI army has : 3 units with ladders, 2 units with rams, two siege towers, two tunnels (btw where are the TUNNELS IN R2?).
    Nottice that AI army number one has 9 units ready to attack in a total of 20!
    AI army no 2 has: 2 units with rams, 2 units with ladders two units with siege towers.
    AI army no 2 has 6 units ready to attack in total of 20 units. The hard thing is that AI army no2 spawns in opposite direction than AI army no1 forcing me to have defenders in two sides!
    Battle begins:
    Both rams of AI armies target different gates (total 4).
    All ladders spread out away from the wall areas that tunnels will destroy !
    All siege towers spread out too! A total hell!!!!
    That is what we ask for. The strange thing is that the head AI creator of CA has DEEP knowlege of what we are talking about! But he never ever explained us a thing!
    I remember some one that claimed that could also fix AI forced to leave TWC as a lier! Was he?
    The answer must be give us with actions in the game not words like politicians!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  13. #13
    Lugotorix's Avatar non flectis non mutant
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    I fought one siege yesterday.

    And whilest the AI managed to get 4 ladders on the walls and 3 units to set fire to the gates, everything still suffers from one mistake.

    And entire army consisting of 16 units storms a recently opend gate, and for some weird reason 8 units in a bottled up position are able to keep them out??????????

    That's about right, depending on the quality of the troops. I had a pleasant surprise on Legendary when the enemy (Athens) tried to land at my port, rear gate, and side gate in Pella. They used all four ladders and almost beat superior numbers.
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  14. #14
    ToonTotalWar's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    AnthoniusII nice feedback, but I too reckon this will fall on deaf ears at CA, they insist on pumping out more DLC and us mugs (the consumer) continue to buy there product when they should be concentrating on fixing a game that is not even worthy to be called a "finished product"!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Solution: Play multiplayer campaign.

    Good SIEGE AI? You might as well ask for a trip to the moon. The only game i can remember with descent siege AI was Shogun 2, where the AI can climb up every segment of the walls, sure must have been hard to get that to work.... When i have Siege battles against the AI it works most of the time, thats more than what we can expect from a total war game.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliCiousTZM View Post
    Solution: Play multiplayer campaign.

    Good SIEGE AI? You might as well ask for a trip to the moon. The only game i can remember with descent siege AI was Shogun 2, where the AI can climb up every segment of the walls, sure must have been hard to get that to work.... When i have Siege battles against the AI it works most of the time, thats more than what we can expect from a total war game.
    Thats the stupidest "solution" I have ever heard. Total war games have always been a single player experience with the multiplayer a nice addition. Also I thought multiplayer had major problems with syncing and saving?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Shogun 2 did basically cheat in this regard, and I found sieges to be the most underwhelming part of a game based on that period. Fortifications were a huge part of warfare. They were major obstacles. In the game, units could just climb the walls. They were basically useless. I actually prefer Rome 2's sieges to that ridiculous mechanic. I disagree that past games were that bad, though. The AI would build siege equipment and use it properly. Their path finding wasn't so atrocious and focused on capture points.

    Shogun 2 gets glorified more than any TW game, but that's a subject for another topic.

  18. #18
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ABH2 View Post
    I haven't had time to play a lot with the new update, but the only instance in the past in which the AI had one latter from my experience was when it was a rebel army. That was the case in previous patches.
    Good observation. Atleast in of such sieges with 1 ladder was INDEED of a rebel army!
    Quote Originally Posted by ABH2 View Post
    Well, maybe it's just me, but I consider the AI attacking two gates in itself progress. Is it a great leap forward? No, but it's better than cramming every single unit into the same gate.
    Not actually , I am a man of details. Since patch 10 atleast AI attacked with torches -and WHEN AI had two armies-in two gates or more!
    In that case i see no improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToonTotalWar View Post
    AnthoniusII nice feedback, but I too reckon this will fall on deaf ears at CA, they insist on pumping out more DLC and us mugs (the consumer) continue to buy there product when they should be concentrating on fixing a game that is not even worthy to be called a "finished product"!
    True i do not expect much but hope dies last!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    If the AI move to capture the settlement using whatever tools they have available, and do not freeze i consider it a success. Then i say gj CA mission accomplished. I guess it is a good thing that people are demanding more than that. But please dont pretend like Rome II has the biggest SIEGE AI problems. Empire and medieval 2 bugs regularly.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Patch 13 Siege and Re-inforcement observation.

    I didn't play Empire, but I wouldn't know. I actually just drew a comparison between Shogun 2 and actually had Rome 2 come out favorably. I think a lot of the current issues started with the earliest use of Warscape. Seems to be a correlation there. Shogun 2 had all of the same AI issues, but a simplified system that allowed them to hide some of them or make them less significant. Path finding was still terrible, and no one is going to convince me that climbing walls is realistic, sensible, or fun. I'll take the bugged version of Rome 2 most of the time over that.

    While sieges have been bugged to various degrees, it functioned at an acceptable level in Rome 1. Especially compared to this one. Just my view.

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