Honor killings of girls in Pakistan

[Roma_Victrix]

In Pakistan, 1,000 women die in ‘honor killings’ annually. Why is this happening?

For the life of me, I will never understand this, how killing your own daughter is supposed to bring you some BS sense of honor. Most horrendous of all is the idea that raped women should be punished, and not their perpetrators.

If I had a daughter, I would do everything I could until pain of death to protect her; committing violence against a woman to me is already unfathomable to begin with. These people seem all too eager to cull their own offspring. It's frightening and grotesque.

On Tuesday, a pregnant 25-year-old woman was stoned to death by her family for marrying a man she loved.

The stoning took place in the middle of the day, outside a courthouse, beside a busy thoroughfare. The woman and her husband had been “in love,” her husband said, and they’d gone to a courthouse to sign the paperwork. Outside, the woman’s father, brothers and extended family waited. When the couple emerged, the family reportedly tried to snatch her, then murdered her.

“I killed my daughter as she had insulted all of our family by marrying a man without our consent, and I have no regret over it,” her father told police, adding that it had been an “honor killing.”

The anecdote is horrifying. But even more horrifying is the regularity with which stonings and honor killings occur in Pakistan — more than 1,000 per year according to a Pakistani rights group -- and the brutal act’s resiliency in the face of creeping modernity, secular condemnation and the fact that there’s no reference to stoning in the Koran. Despite that, 83 percent of Pakistanis support stonings for adultery according to a Pew survey, and only 8 percent oppose it. Even those who chose modernity over Islamic fundamentalism overwhelmingly favor stonings, according to Pew research.

It’s the year 2014. Why is this still happening?

Some Islamic fundamentalists think that only through the murder of an offending family member can honor be restored to the rest of the family. Honor killings predominantly affect women — 943 women were killed under such circumstances in 2011 and another 869 in 2013, though not all were stoned. Some were just gunned down in cold blood.

One man in Punjab province suspected his teenage nieces of having “inappropriate relations” with two boys. So on January 11, he killed both girls, confessed and said he did it for “honor.”

Another teenage girl, living in Sukkur, was allegedly shot dead by her brother while she was doing homework because her brother thought she was sleeping with a man.

One mom and dad allegedly killed their 15-year-old daughter with acid because they said she looked at a boy and they ”feared dishonor.” ”There was a boy who came by on a motorcycle,” her father told BBC. My daughter “turned to look at him twice. I told her before not to do that; it’s wrong. People talk about us.”

The mother added: “She said ‘I didn’t do it on purpose. I won’t look again.’ By then I had already thrown the acid. It was her destiny to die this way.”

Those who are stoned under such circumstances are guilty of adultery, or zina. Both genders are stoned in Pakistan and across 14 Muslim countries, but women are more frequently the targets.

The reason is rooted in sexual inequality in such countries, where the punishment has survived through some interpretations of sharia, or Islamic law, that say adultery is punishable by stoning. In countries such as Iran, where stonings are legal and widespread, men often have significantly more agency than women. If accused of adultery, they may have the means to either hire lawyers or flee. But those options are frequently closed to women.

One 13-year-old girl named Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow faced such a fate. The Somali child claimed she had been raped by three men and told the authorities what had happened. But her report did not spur an investigation into her allegations. Instead, the girl was accused of adultery, buried up to her neck inside a stadium and stoned to death before 1,000 people.

Can anything stop the stonings?

It’s unclear. A petition circulated last year that netted 12,000 signatures called on the United Nations to enact international laws against stonings. But regardless of international pressure, rights activists say the number of stonings and honor killings have continued to climb in Pakistan, where they are already illegal.

“Stoning is a cruel and hideous punishment,” a spokesman for Women Living Under Muslim Laws told the Independent. “It is a form of torturing someone to death. It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms.”

[Big War Bird]

Can't wait to share this article with my daughter the next time she says I' m being unfair.

[Lord of Nihilism]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

[Denny Crane!]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

Would it offend you if the same father decided to hunt you down and kill you? Would you think its not really a problem because it is their culture and how could you judge?

[Col. Tartleton]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

It's not an edgy band or a controversial artist. The "you just don't get it" argument is inapplicable.

If a country wants to make something like indecent exposure a crime, be it nudity or a bare head, punishable by a small to moderate fine or a slap on the wrist that's something I'll write off as "culture differences" and accept. But there is a clear line to be drawn between tolerable injustice and intolerable injustice. Killing your kid in any situation other than self defense does not fall under the tolerable injustice.

[Roma_Victrix]

Why restrict it to Pakistan? The idea that a daughter's virginity is the family's property, or that a female family member's actions or lack thereof reflect on the whole family's honor is much more wide spread than to Pakistan.

Bingo; this is the heart of the issue. And yes, it's more widespread than just Pakistan. The article I shared here only focuses on that country, for some reason.

I dunno as bad as pakistan is, is there one person on the board who thinks murder is legal there?

The article makes it pretty clear that such killings are illegal in Pakistan, reiterating it more than once, and something that Pasan has just pointed out as well.

It's not an edgy band or a controversial artist. The "you just don't get it" argument is inapplicable.

Well said, bro.

So yeah that means the religion has to go or at least be diminished. I don't think it can be forced. Opening it up to the internet might help, that and South Park.

Good call there.

I view such stereotyping a primitive. You are aware that mixed race couples exist, surely?

Yeah, they exist almost everywhere. However, when it's a Muslim guy involved, the girl can be Muslim or of any religion. In Islam, a Muslim girl, however, is forbidden to marry outside her religion, because the children would presumably not be raised as Muslims. Along with apostasy and adultery, I believe that's an offense punishable by death according to Sharia Law. That's why you don't see Muslim girls going out dating Christian guys. Or Allah forbid, an Atheist.

[King_Porus]

I wish the media (and everyone else) would stop calling these "honour killings". There's nothing honourable about them, it's just murder, no more, no less.

Yeah, they exist almost everywhere. However, when it's a Muslim guy involved, the girl can be Muslim or of any religion. In Islam, a Muslim girl, however, is forbidden to marry outside her religion, because the children would presumably not be raised as Muslims. Along with apostasy and adultery, I believe that's an offense punishable by death according to Sharia Law. That's why you don't see Muslim girls going out dating Christian guys. Or Allah forbid, an Atheist.

Jeez, I need to tell my girlfriend that she's forbidden to date me before things get too serious between us...

[Roma_Victrix]

Jeez, I need to tell my girlfriend that she's forbidden to date me before things get too serious between us...

Yeah, you should really look into that. And may I suggest never traveling with your girlfriend to various countries where this is severely frowned upon or worse, illegal.

That being said, when I lived in Kyrgyzstan, it appeared to me that it was somewhat normal for Kyrgyz girls and Kyrgyz guys to get with Russians (Orthodox Christians) of the opposite sex. Especially in the capital city, Bishkek, where things were fairly liberal.

[Dromikaites]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

You're spot on! I think should rep you for that.

People invest time and resources in raising cattle, then the same people slaughter and eat the cattle because the purpose of the cattle is to be eaten.

People invest time and resources in raising daughters because the daughters have commercial value, just like cattle. In those cultures where daughters don't have much value, the daughters were drowned, died of exposure or, more recently, mothers get an abortion when they find out they're pregnant with daughters.

Therefore far from being a sign of devaluating women, honor killings show that women do have value.

Honor killings only happen when there is a high risk of not getting a return on the investment. Many Westerners liquidate their positions in a stock which shows little promise. Why not liquidate a daughter as well but cash in in the same time (like selling her organs for transplants or pay-per-viewing the killing, or both, for maximum return)?

Daniel Defoe suggested that the Irish sell their children as food to the rich people, which is just another way to cash in on the investment made into such assets (his proposal has the merit of not discriminating between men and women, but he was a White European, not a brown , therefore his proposal was unsurprisingly morally superior).

The only disagreement we have on this issue (and on several others on other threads) is that I favor carefully thought out Western intervention in such cases:

1) The cultures where honor killing is the norm should learn from the West how to maximize the profit from the act (as I said, selling the organs and pay-per-view are easy to implement in the 21st century);

2) Those cultures should learn to stop discriminating between men and women when honor-killing. All the Irish children are equally tasty and all the organs of the healthy Pakistani are equally fit for transplants.

[Winston Smith]

You're spot on! I think should rep you for that.

People invest time and resources in raising cattle, then the same people slaughter and eat the cattle because the purpose of the cattle is to be eaten.

People invest time and resources in raising daughters because the daughters have commercial value, just like cattle. In those cultures where daughters don't have much value, the daughters were drowned, died of exposure or, more recently, mothers get an abortion when they find out they're pregnant with daughters.

Therefore far from being a sign of devaluating women, honor killings show that women do have value.

Honor killings only happen when there is a high risk of not getting a return on the investment. Many Westerners liquidate their positions in a stock which shows little promise. Why not liquidate a daughter as well but cash in in the same time (like selling her organs for transplants or pay-per-viewing the killing, or both, for maximum return)?

Daniel Defoe suggested that the Irish sell their children as food to the rich people, which is just another way to cash in on the investment made into such assets (his proposal has the merit of not discriminating between men and women, but he was a White European, not a brown , therefore his proposal was unsurprisingly morally superior).

The only disagreement we have on this issue (and on several others on other threads) is that I favor carefully thought out Western intervention in such cases:

1) The cultures where honor killing is the norm should learn from the West how to maximize the profit from the act (as I said, selling the organs and pay-per-view are easy to implement in the 21st century);

2) Those cultures should learn to stop discriminating between men and women when honor-killing. All the Irish children are equally tasty and all the organs of the healthy Pakistani are equally fit for transplants.

Have you been reading A Modest Proposal?

[priam11]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

That or the more obvious position......they are killing someone.

[Holger Danske]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

What a pathetic example of apologism. Honour Killings have no place in the modern world anyone who adhere to or apologise this barbaric way of life deserves nothing but misery. Using #culture is no excuse for blatant murder.

[fkizz]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

You're ok with honor killings of females? because it's not your culture? I'll never understand cultural relativists.

[Winston Smith]

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

Culture is no excuse for murder.

[cupoftea]

Tradition, culture or whatever, killing someone (especially your daughter) in the name of honour is one of the most BS things a human being can do imo.

[Condottiere 40K]

Daughters are consider mobile property, and their behaviour reflects on thehonour of not only their imediate family, but also the extended clan, which is where the social pressure comes from, and the need to maintain the family's social standing.

They needed the British Empire to continue to exist in the Indian subcontinent for another hundred years to extinguish such practices.

[Påsan]

Enlightenment thinking and personal freedom has yet to reach Pakistan it seems

Different cultures, different perspectives. I'm not going to judge Middle Eastern people and their culture/traditions and decide whether it's right or wrong, since i'm not one of them. It's important to note that while something, such as honour killings may seem absurd to one's self, it may seem normal and it many cases traditional to another person. Me, I personally don't see the point in honour killings but that's because I share none of their traditions/culture.

Its not about "Respecting Culture" Europeans (Or Scandinavians, at least) did the exact same thing in the 17th centuries. The government responded by enforcing strict punishment and upholding the law and the "culture" was changed.

Ignoring evil because of "different culture" is really just another version of appeasement.

However its up to the Pakistani government to change this grizzly side of their country.

[sumskilz]

Enlightenment thinking and personal freedom has yet to reach Pakistan it seems

Its not about "Respecting Culture" Europeans (Or Scandinavians, at least) did the exact same thing in the 17th centuries. The government responded by enforcing strict punishment and upholding the law and the "culture" was changed.

Ignoring evil because of "different culture" is really just another version of appeasement.

Enforcing strict punishment on people who carry out their traditional cultural practices is disrespecting an aspect of their culture. Forcing people to change their culture to conform to your cultural values is disrespecting their culture. Calling this practice evil is disrespecting their culture. Different cultures have different views on when killing is right or wrong, and what actions are punishable. What you're really saying is that our cultural values are better than their backward traditions, or maybe even that our values are objectively good and theirs are objectively evil. What you call Enlightenment thinking came out of a specific cultural context. It takes a lot of doublethink to make the claim that this isn't about culture.

Not all aspects of different cultures are compatible with each other. This is an example.

[Påsan]

Enforcing strict punishment on people who carry out their traditional cultural practices is disrespecting an aspect of their culture. Forcing people to change their culture to conform to your cultural values is disrespecting their culture. Calling this practice evil is disrespecting their culture. Different cultures have different views on when killing is right or wrong, and what actions are punishable. What you're really saying is that our cultural values are better than their backward traditions, or maybe even that our values are objectively good and theirs are objectively evil. What you call Enlightenment thinking came out of a specific cultural context. It takes a lot of doublethink to make the claim that this isn't about culture.

Not all aspects of different cultures are compatible with each other. This is an example.

"Honour killings" is illegal in Pakistan. Now the government have to enforce their ban. What the hell you are talking about I have no idea.

[sumskilz]

Culture is no excuse for murder.

The difference between murder and justified killing is culturally defined, unles you think its defined by God or something (hard to prove).

LOL. The Liberal Man's Burden...sounds like something Rudyard Kipling wrote long ago.

Yeah it's a joke really, but underlying the joke is that many leftists proactively support cultural imperialism when its something they agree with while holding other views that make such support hypocritical. Of course cultural imperialism with regard to liberal values (in the classic sense of the word) is not limited to leftists, but there is less hypocrisy from rightists who are (in many cases) willing to argue that their own culture is superior on some level.

Murder is more or less a universal crime.

Honor killings are seen as justice not murder by those who support them.

"Honour killings" is illegal in Pakistan.

Of course that's good in my opinion, but it's not supported by a large portion of the society:

What the hell you are talking about I have no idea.

Clearly