Vietnam accuses China rammed its fish boat in disputed sea region

[hellheaven1987]

I don't know ramming is still a main naval tactic in 21st Century.

A Vietnamese fishing boat has sunk after it collided with a Chinese vessel near a controversial oil rig in the South China Sea, amid tensions between the two nations.

Both countries are blaming the other for the incident.

Vietnam's coast guard said the boat was encircled by 40 Chinese vessels before it was rammed, reports said.

But Chinese state media outlet Xinhua said Vietnam's boat collided with its vessel after "engaging in harassment".

The BBC's Martin Patience says that whatever the truth, the sinking is likely to further escalate tensions between the two countries, given that for the past few weeks they have engaged in skirmishes at sea.

The two are locked in an intensifying dispute over South China Sea territory.

Vietnam has protested against China moving its Haiyang Shiyou 981 rig to waters also claimed by Hanoi, at a spot near the disputed Paracel Islands.

Monday's incident happened just 17 nautical miles from the rig, Vietnamese reports said.

Xinhua on Tuesday claimed that Vietnam had "on many occasions dispatched various boats with the sole intention of harassing Chinese-linked companies drilling in that part of the ocean".

It said China had made serious representations to Vietnam to request that it "halt its harassing and destructive activities".

Vietnamese media meanwhile reported that China deployed "a fast attack missile boat and a minesweeper" around the rig on Monday.

Source

Well, the interesting part is that Japan actually sent out an official comment on this event, accusing China tries to increase the tension. With the recent change of law in Japan that allows the export of Japanese military equipments to foreign countries, perhaps Japan would start selling Vietnam goodies now?

[Dr Zoidberg]

Bit rich of the Chinese accusing the Vietnamese of harassment when they're the ones who have moved an Oil rig within 200 NM of Vietnamese Coast and inside its UNCLOS EEZ.

[hellheaven1987]

Bit rich of the Chinese accusing the Vietnamese of harassment when they're the ones who have moved an Oil rig within 200 NM of Vietnamese Coast and inside its UNCLOS EEZ.

Interesting China actually does not deny the incident happened, but rather comment "it is in my territory and Vietnam got what it deserves."

[Dr Zoidberg]

Interesting China actually does not deny the incident happened, but rather comment "it is in my territory and Vietnam got what it deserves."

Of course they'd say that. Problem is by an objective or legal measure, the location of the oil rig is clearly not their territory.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Of course they'd say that. Problem is by an objective or legal measure, the location of the oil rig is clearly not their territory.

Maybe if they drop enough Chinese people on the rig in that territory they can hold a referendum guarded by PLA troops?

[Roma_Victrix]

Maybe if they drop enough Chinese people on the rig in that territory they can hold a referendum guarded by PLA troops?

This is a strategy the PRC has not put enough stock into yet.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Well when you're as big as China, you're liable to throw your weight around with a "No s given this day" attitude.

[Lord of Nihilism]

What can you realistically do in this situation? China is arguably the premiere superpower of the world, and she holds substantial economic might as well as military might...Vietnam has neither of those.

[hellheaven1987]

What can you realistically do in this situation? China is arguably the premiere superpower of the world, and she holds substantial economic might as well as military might...Vietnam has neither of those.

Invite Vietnam into NATO then.

[Dr Zoidberg]

What can you realistically do in this situation? China is arguably the premiere superpower of the world, and she holds substantial economic might as well as military might...Vietnam has neither of those.

I would wager there are some elements of the Vietnamese military arguing that the placement of a Chinese oil rig inside their EEZ and now the sinking of one of their ships is reason enough to send a couple of cruise missiles into that rig.

Also, to call China the world's premiere superpower is ridiculous. Regionally, they are the top dog; but they are not a superpower. Their ability to project force beyond their territorial waters is minimal at best.

[Lord of Nihilism]

I would wager there are some elements of the Vietnamese military arguing that the placement of a Chinese oil rig inside their EEZ and now the sinking of one of their ships is reason enough to send a couple of cruise missiles into that rig.

Also, to call China the world's premiere superpower is ridiculous. Regionally, they are the top dog; but they are not a superpower. Their ability to project force beyond their territorial waters is minimal at best.

And if those Vietnamese military officials carry out with that, they'll find that China's military power is nothing to scoff at, and Vietnam will most likely lose more assets than if they didn't carry out launching cruise missiles at the oil rig.

How do you define "superpower"? I define a superpower as a country that can expand its influence/control via military might or economic might. China in this case is a superpower because it has the world's largest military, and it'll only continue to grow bigger as the People's Republic of China adds more aircraft carriers, destroyers and airplanes to its arsenal. China is also a superpower due to the economic power she wields; China as of right now just signed a large petrol deal with Russia in which the agreement favoured them, and they control the World's economy as much as the infamous US does. China could literally buy Romania, Poland, Africa, the Ukraine, Estonia and etc if it wanted to, so that's just a perspective of how vast her economic power is.

[cupoftea]

And if those Vietnamese military officials carry out with that, they'll find that China's military power is nothing to scoff at, and Vietnam will most likely lose more assets than if they didn't carry out launching cruise missiles at the oil rig.

How do you define "superpower"? I define a superpower as a country that can expand its influence/control via military might or economic might. China in this case is a superpower because it has the world's largest military, and it'll only continue to grow bigger as the People's Republic of China adds more aircraft carriers, destroyers and airplanes to its arsenal. China is also a superpower due to the economic power she wields; China as of right now just signed a large petrol deal with Russia in which the agreement favoured them, and they control the World's economy as much as the infamous US does. China could literally buy Romania, Poland, Africa, the Ukraine, Estonia and etc if it wanted to, so that's just a perspective of how vast her economic power is.

China has nowhere the military YET to be called a superpower.

[Lord of Nihilism]

China has nowhere the military YET to be called a superpower.

The largest military on the globe isn't considered a superpower? The PLA has 2.2 million active service troops ready to fight with an additional 800,000 in reserve; they can conscript more troops if needed as well. Let's compare the US who has around 1 million active service troops; it's pretty clear who has the better Army. Their Air force and Navy are sufficient as well, but no where near the efficiency and capability of the Royal Navy or the US Navy, but that's changing as China dedicates more resources to their military which will allow them to purchase/construct more aircraft carriers, stealth fighters, destroyers and etc. China is modernising at a rapid rate in regards to its Navy and Air force, and them acquiring high tech gear from Russia and Israel via trade deals will only accelerate the rate at which they become an almost unstoppable military force.

[AqD]

What can you realistically do in this situation? China is arguably the premiere superpower of the world, and she holds substantial economic might as well as military might...Vietnam has neither of those.

We can encourage them to have a fight and winner takes all. Peace will come afterwards.

Last time when it happened China actually lost very badly.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Its a huge army that hasn't seen combat since 1979 when it had a minor spat with Vietnam. So outside of a few - and I stress a few - senior officers, the PLA has no combat experience. None; nada; nothing. For all its size and relatively modern weapons, it remains untested and unproven as far as a combat effective force goes.

It currently has a single aircraft carrier that it uses for training and which is no where near as capable as the USA's 10 Nimitz-class flattops. They can build all the carriers they want, but it will take them decades to actually learn how to use them properly and effectively.

Size means nothing when it comes to comparing combat forces. It comes down to kit, training, experience, and doctrine. And in all 4 of those fields, the PLA is lagging to some extent behind the USA, Russia, and a number of other modern militaries.

[Condottiere 40K]

[Lord of Nihilism]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%...Notable_events

Here's a list of conflicts/skirmishes and etc they took part in. As you can see, the PLA have indeed seen some sort of combat from the 1990's-present. You claim that the PLA remains untested and unproven as a combat effective force, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would lose in a conventional war if they fought one. The Chinese have the largest Army on the planet and more artillery, tanks and guns than the US so I'm confident that they would do fine in a conventional war. There's a reason why most civilised countries have military academies; it's so officers can study warfare, tactics, logistics and etc and apply them in a war/conflict.

We'll see regarding Chinese naval superiority. It's clear that these disputes between these SEA and Asian countries will make China think about modernising its Navy and Air force a lot quicker. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese Navy becomes the largest naval force on the planet 10-20 years from now.

Troop size still has meaning in modern wars. Do you honestly expect a country like Romania, the US, Poland and etc to withstand a 2.2 million man Army invasion, supported by artillery, tanks and etc? No, they would get overwhelmed and eventually lose. Military size is also important when it comes to geopolitics and etc as we've seen with this Chinese Vietnam incident. China has a 2.2 million man Army with more in reserve, more tanks and artillery than Vietnam, and a Navy and Air force that completely decimate their Vietnamese equivalents, so what can Vietnam do? Absolutely nothing since it can't challenge the Chinese militarily or economically.

[Dr Zoidberg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%...Notable_events

That's nice, but it still proves my point. The only actual war in that list is the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese war. Piddling border skirmish and stand-offs over uninhabited islands in the SCS do not count.

So - as I previously said - the PLA has not seen combat in 1979. It is untested when it comes to modern warfare. You can prattle on and on all you want about numbers, but at the end of they day, those numbers mean jack if they're inadequately trained and poorly lead.

Now, I've never said that they would lose in a conventional fight, as you imply they would. I just don't put much faith on them winning depending on the who the opposing side it.

[Lord of Nihilism]

As I said, what makes you certain that they're poorly trained and lead if they've never been in an actual conventional war since 1979? Military academies do exist contrary to popular belief, in which they provide the knowledge and skills required for an officers/Generals job, so it's not as if the PLA if they fought a conventional war today would be destroyed instantly. Troops numbers do have relevance to both this topic and to current wars. Why do you think Vietnam hasn't invaded the Chinese oil rig or clashed with the PLA? It's because China's immense Army, naval and air force size deter Vietnam from doing anything. What do you think would happen if China had a military of 20,000 active service troops and a non existent air force and Navy? I'm certain Vietnam would be waging war against the Chinese and/or remove the oil rig by force. The large troop numbers also means that China is ready to engage in wars for an extensive amount of time if needed, and that they can suffer losses in combat, compared to the US(1 million troops counting both active and reserve) who would be hurt by every casualty in a war.

EDIT: I just missed your edit. The problem is your posts appear to be stating that China doesn't stand a chance if it fights a conventional war, which is ridiculous since officers, soldiers and Generals are indeed trained at military academies, and thus they're given the tools/knowledge to fight/win wars. Unlike you though, I have good faith in the PLA and them winning conventional wars simply because no other country has the amount of men they do. They can take casualties compared to most other countries where every soldier, officer and etc is extremely valuable in terms of net worth.

[conon394]

The Chinese have the largest Army on the planet

Having a lot of warm meat is not equivalent to having a army.

and more artillery, tanks and guns than the US

Have you actually taken the time look at their inventory? China has only 500 tanks that can in any way be considered modern - the rest all 6500+ are relics that were out of date even when new. Stuff the US and NATO have in storage from the 60s could take them out. The US what 5000 M1 variants in service and another 2000 or so laying around in the desert are easily superior. You can do d the same math for the US air force vs China and have to consider what is in the Bone Yard.

There's a reason why most civilised countries have military academies; it's so officers can study warfare, tactics, logistics and etc and apply them in a war/conflict.

Indeed but unlike China you can't buy your promotion in the US. You certainly have not attended a military academy since you might than have noticed China is more or less surrounded by not friends or at best marginal allies (2 ish) while the US has a lot in the region.

We'll see regarding Chinese naval superiority. It's clear that these disputes between these SEA and Asian countries will make China think about modernising its Navy and Air force a lot quicker. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese Navy becomes the largest naval force on the planet 10-20 years from now.

Size does not equal effective. Their first SSBN sunk at dock, they have one rather useless CV and its small, their other nuclear subs are noisy, their sub fleet is mostly DE decent to good for local defense but not power projection. Do you realize how many bases the and friends and reserve support ships the USN needs for global power projection? Seeing as China is doing such a fine job of pissing off pretty much all its neighbors a big fleet is mostly pointless.

China has a 2.2 million man Army with more in reserve, more tanks and artillery than Vietnam, and a Navy and Air force that completely decimate their Vietnamese equivalents, so what can Vietnam do? Absolutely nothing since it can't challenge the Chinese militarily or economically.

You do realize you could have said same back in dunno in 64 about the US and Vietnam and look who is all independent and look who left...

Here's a list of conflicts/skirmishes and etc they took part in. As you can see, the PLA have indeed seen some sort of combat from the 1990's-present.

Really because I'm not seeing any such operation on your linked list.

EDIT: I just missed your edit. The problem is your posts appear to be stating that China doesn't stand a chance if it fights a conventional war, which is ridiculous since officers, soldiers and Generals are indeed trained at military academies, and thus they're given the tools/knowledge to fight/win wars. Unlike you though, I have good faith in the PLA and them winning conventional wars simply because no other country has the amount of men they do. They can take casualties compared to most other countries where every soldier, officer and etc is extremely valuable in terms of net worth.

They did not impress last time the fought Vietnam. They have a huge corruption problems in their officer promotion system and the army in general. And who says can throw men at the problem anymore? There may still be a corrupt autocratic oligarchy, but I rather doubt their public is so willing to trade bodies vs bullets anymore as it might have been back in the old days.