What am I doing wrong in my battles?

[Greasy Dave]

I've been making a couple of very short forays into the mod over the last couple of days and keep facing the same problem - I can't get the Ai to rout. A key part of my per DeI tactics was to flank Ai units, or attack them from behind, get them to rout and roll up the AI line.

I can't do this in DeI. I guess I must be doing something wrong- or unaware of some aspect of the way the mod is built because the mod seems popular, so I guess I'm the only person with the problem.

I'll give you an example, yesterday I played a battle as Athens against Epirus. I'm not sure about the unit type I was up against because of the " greek" naming...however, I'm fairly certain -due to the unit card image I was running heavy hoplite against heavy hoplite. )It was only turn 2 - so Epirus couldn't have had much stronger than tha) So One hoplite unit faced the AI units head on, and a second came in on the flank and hit it from behind. The Ai was sandwiched between two units. It fought and fought and remained steady. My two units lost equal amounts of men as the AI - ie, when the AI was 160/180 - both my units were 160/180!?

Ultimately one of my units routed first after all three were almost down tho their last men. (And theAI general was out of range so it wasn't being inspired or rallied)

Second case was a battle in turn three between thrace and macedonia. I had thracian axemen facing a MAcedonian spear unit. Fine, I'm expecting my axemen to get cut down. But I run another axemen unit into the spearmen from behind. Charge, from behind. The unit that is attacking from behind routed within a couple of minutes. The AI didn't waiver. There was no general in the Ai army - it was a garrison.

Strangely defending a siege, when my Thracian axemen army was outnumbered and defending a burnt gate- I was able to get the
macedonian hoplites/spearmen -again, hard to tell what exactly they are with that "Greek/Roman" naming system - to rout when they were only 170/180 men.

I don't understand. I don't see what I was doing differently in the siege defence...?

HOw do I get the AI to rout with this mod?

[Greasy Dave]

BTW. I forgot to say, I was playing hard/ hard

[meerkatology]

BTW. I forgot to say, I was playing hard/ hard

theres the issue, battles on hard gives AI a HUGE bonus to all stats. in my tests. two same units, mine with +6 exp lvls vs 0 exp on the AI side, the AI still destroyed mine. i'd recommend playing VH/M rather than H/H

also generals doenst need to be close for their passive bonuses like from the levels and retinues etc. look at the enemy units moral bar to see how much it actually has without any generals nearby. not saying this is the cause but just fyi.

flanking has a shock effect, if the unit doesn't route immediately then flanking loses alot of morale effect and they can recover from the shock. so you want to flank at a time when you know they will route. flanking units at near full strength will not route them, unless you are charging them with heavy cav and cause a huge amount of casualities on the charge.

generally even on normal, a flank charge with cavalry will not immediately route a mid or higher tier unit when it just started fighting.

exhaustion has a huge effect on morale as well, when a unit is tired its MUCH more likely to route.

[TheOrangeProject]

theres the issue, battles on hard gives AI a HUGE bonus to all stats. in my tests. two same units, mine with +6 exp lvls vs 0 exp on the AI side, the AI still destroyed mine. i'd recommend playing VH/M rather than H/H

also generals doenst need to be close for their passive bonuses like from the levels and retinues etc. look at the enemy units moral bar to see how much it actually has without any generals nearby. not saying this is the cause but just fyi.

[...] .

Every general and some units have an aura which gives buff to moral. Unless DeI takes that out, which i dont think is the case ^^ The blue circle is not only for the abilites.

@OP just do like i posted You can modify the tactic. But units will suffer loses due to your flanking range units and that also effects moral as well as meele effectiveness, because units who get hit by missiles lose health. Thats why are slingers not that bad, many just dont know how to use them properly.

Charge in with cav, get the shock effect+dealing good damage against the enemy. Retreat and regroup and do it again. It is basically what the AI is also doing. This is also the purpose of shock cav. If you let them fighting, you will waste a huge amount of damage potential.

Problem about shock cav and meele cav is that some people reported that shock cav is also better in long meele combats, which meele cav should be superior. But again. The purpose of shock cav is to shock. They have a huge bonus for charge.

[meerkatology]

Every general and some units have an aura which gives buff to moral. Unless DeI takes that out, which i dont think is the case ^^ The blue circle is not only for the abilites.

@OP just do like i posted You can modify the tactic. But units will suffer loses due to your flanking range units and that also effects moral as well as meele effectiveness, because units who get hit by missiles lose health. Thats why are slingers not that bad, many just dont know how to use them properly.

Charge in with cav, get the shock effect+dealing good damage against the enemy. Retreat and regroup and do it again. It is basically what the AI is also doing. This is also the purpose of shock cav. If you let them fighting, you will waste a huge amount of damage potential.

Problem about shock cav and meele cav is that some people reported that shock cav is also better in long meele combats, which meele cav should be superior. But again. The purpose of shock cav is to shock. They have a huge bonus for charge.

im talking about +bonuses from ur generals retinue and things u lvl up on the campaign map, u will see your units retaining these bonuses even without the general nearby , just look at their stats.

[pyccos]

first Hard battle gives the ai a descent bonus to all status. second spears are dangerous when in formation. don't try to route the enemy so soon wait tell the fighting has taken its toll then hit them in the flanks/rear after there troops are tiring. use archers that hoplite weakness. use abilitys and passive effects will help elephants are horrible in combat but have a huge moral debuff. in the siege the enemy troops had to get to your gates while your troops waited, making them tire quickly once combat is engaged. lower tier units will route rather fast as where professionals will fight to the last most of the time.

[Le_Swede]

The mod is balanced around normal battle difficulty, which means that any difficulty beyond that drastically improves the AI's units capabilites.

[TheOrangeProject]

My personal way of doing this:

1. Take some heavy meele units with good defence in the middle.
2. Stop the main force with them, make sure your general is around to keep your moral high
3. Move skirmishers and 1-2 light/middle/heavy (doenst matter that much, but spears are good against cav flanking) around the edges
4. Start firing into the enemy backs, use all your ammunition (spear thrower doenst have many shots).
5. After using every spera, take the meele units and charge in their backs
6. With the out of ammo skirmishers you can hunt routing or range enemys.

In addition you can use some cav, for some shock engages in the back.


Edit: Playing on Legendary with DeI.

[Armageddonn]

I will tell you the most simple tactic there is.

Always i mean always keep 4-5 units in reserve and ready for flanking, have 1 main line , in that main line make sure the highest defense units 2 of them either hoplites or whatever you got are at the end of your line and 1 high defense unit at your centar, have 2 reserve units behind each of your flanks and once the enemy engages your main line bring those reserve units around the corners and smash the enemy flanks from the back, if you have horsman even better if not some high attack dmg infantry works, just smash them repeatedly and after each charge leave them for like 20-25 sec to fight than pull them back than repeat , if it is horseman 8-10 sec after all charge is rough than pull them back and repeat.

Even if ur outnumbered always try to flank and smash the enemy flanks with your infantry or cavalry, i have win with this tactic 9/10 times even against superior forces, if ur outnumbered you have to strech your first line and still save few units for flanking maneuvers, keep your general behind the first line and use shouts and commans where they are needed.

[Butan]

Your error seems to be you believe you can break a unit which still has between 80% and 100% of its men just by flank/rear charge.

The morale in DeI is very strong, you have to tire a unit, you have to maim a unit, you have to do a lot of things prior to hoping you can break it.
You need to fight longer before you use your aces.


(this apply less for levy units or any units with 40- morale, which are easy to break)


Since playing in "hard" battle difficulty means every AI unit have bonus to stats (including morale) and you dont, it means almost every enemy units can be treated as a "tough as nails" unit (except levy skirmishers), while yours are easier to rout.

[Greasy Dave]

Brilliant. Thanks for all the feedback. Yeah, you've pretty much nailed it - I have been flanking very early, and with not enough units. Played vanilla too much. I'll hold back the flankers in future. And I'll start DeI on normal battles

But this brings me to a second question. Maybe I'm mistaken- I had thought that most units were more vulnerable when being attacked from behind or on the flank. I understand now why I wasn't able to rout them- but I don't understand why the AI's heavy armoured hoplite unit, sandwiched between my two heavy armoured hoplite units wasn't being cut down faster than my two units...was that due to buffs from the difficulty, ie, it had a higher defence? Or is it only Macedonian pikemen who are vulnerable to attacks from the side and rear?

[KAM 2150]

Rome 2 has that crappy new idea that if units is in formation, bonuses for are given to all soldiers, so for example, guys in the phalanx are as deadly from the front as from the back. They will die faster, but not as fast like in Hollywood movies.

[rjacko10]

Rome 2 has that crappy new idea that if units is in formation, bonuses for are given to all soldiers, so for example, guys in the phalanx are as deadly from the front as from the back. They will die faster, but not as fast like in Hollywood movies.

Flanking a unit doesn't result in a disproportionately higher kill rate (ignoring the initial charge bonus). The men at the back of the unit will simply turn around, so it's still a normal fight in that respect. But it will make that unit uncomfortable, i.e. morale suffers.

I've read through the other tips given above and no one has mentioned about how to properly utilise the amazing power of javelin men. Send Javs around the back and wait for the key moment (protect with swords). Each volley of javelins is precious. When the enemy morale starts to dip target your javs. The combined effect of sudden men loss + being hit by missiles causes a massive morale drop. Charge in with your swords and game over. Stop your javs firing immediately. One or two vollies should be enough.

I can't quite believe how cheap these units are! I normally have bundles of them to kick start the routing process.

[Butan]

They will die faster I think Greasy, if you attack from the flank/rear (not sure if that lowers their defense/melee? KAM you know if they do have lowered combat stats in those situations?), but often times it will still mean a slow grind.

Also the "attacked in the flanks" and "attacked in the rear" morale flag debuff doesnt last long. Its peak is just after the charge itself, and then slowly decrease (morale increase). Its better to try to break someone when the charge/contact itself sends the unit morale in the gutter, than charge and grind them down until they rout (as always, this is a general idea, doesnt apply to every scenario).



One could just sum it up as : use two lines of battles, the first line to pin every enemy units possible, wait for real good opportunities before using the second line, except if the morale of the first line of enemy is already low.

The flimsy but durable morale of DeI + the hard stamina system makes for very important management of armies in battles, you must try to keep your units fresh (cycling) and you must manage your reserves accordingly (battle lines). Makes for a real-life army management where a battle wasnt just a huge line of men duking it out all at the same time.

[meerkatology]

melee defense skill only works from the front
armor is split between body armor and shield armor - body armor works all around ,shield armor only from the front and the left side.

so the initiatial impact of charging a unit's flank, you are bypassing their defense skill and shield armor, thats why there is such a big difference between cavalry charges to the fronts vs. to the flank. once the melee starts, the flanked unit will turn around and it will turn into a regular melee, it does suffer a morale penalty from being surrounded, however, it does not suffer combat penalties.

javelins thrown from the right side or the back side of the unit will bypass their shield and since they have high armor penetration, will cause massive casualties when you throw them into someones flank.

[Elin4Lyfe]

Prolonged flanking doesnt do that much against morale. Charges cause much better morale shock, so a better way to quickly route a unit is to hold it in place with one melee unit and repeatedly charge it with another. Internal charge cooldown in like 10 seconds, so you can rotate troops out and continuously deliver morale shocks. Obviously, this works much better using shock cav, which will often instantly route a weak/mid tier spear unit.

[Greasy Dave]

So thanks for the advice. I just won my first 20 stack vs 20 stack battle using the advice, javelins and cavalry-rout machines.

But going slightly off topic- this raised some behaviour I don't understand on the campaign map. Perhaps someone can explain what I've missed.

I landed my army on the very west tip of Crete to draw the defending army out of mycenae without a garrison. AI's turn the AI army crosses the whole of the island an attacks me. I beat it, 2 to 1 and "routs" a short distance back into the forest in the middle of the Crete. My turn - my agent finds the AI army in the woods and I right click with my army to attack - but my army barely moves. It stops just outside the AI's defensive zone because it doesn't have enough movement to complete the attack. I didn't read any message that an enemy agent had messed with my baggage train (and in vanilla that means no movement whatsoever - not just a small movement). It wasn't a case of me attacking and the AI withdrawing. The AI didn't move. So I'm puzzled how the AI withdrawal could be so far it was beyond my stack's movement (no artillery in my stack BTW). And also how the AI was able to cross the whole island in a single turn and I couldn't get over a quarter of it? I haven't played vanilla for a while, but I believe I used to get notifications when an enemy agent had done something to my troops?

Next turn the AI's stack had replenished to almost full and a reinforcing army that it'd recruited in the single turn I barely moved stuffed my stack

Can anyone explain what I'm missing? Next time I'll just roll straight up to the settlement and try tackling the 20 stack plus the garrison - but I have a feeling that that might be beyond my momentary routing skills.

[Barune]

Cities have huge zones of control, perhaps you got stuck the cities zone of control?

[ABH2]

It sounds like zone of control, I agree. There is a bar that shows how many movement points the army has used. Was it green or empty?

Flanking is one of the more frustrating things for me in the game in general, but especially in DeI. I don't think there were a lot of units that really stood and fought when they were surrounded. Overall, once you adjust to the battles, they were more enjoyable than vanilla. It's nice having line infantry that actually stands and fights instead of insta-routing. You can actually pull of maneuvers.

[Greasy Dave]

It sounds like zone of control, I agree. There is a bar that shows how many movement points the army has used. Was it green or empty?

No. the movement bar was empty. I just checked. I don't know if you can picture long thin Crete - running East West, with the settlement at the East end? The AI's army parked in the settlement can march almost to the West tip of the island -I've checked by mousing over -and the general has no movement bonuses.

My army is parked at the west end -the other end of the island from the settlement and could march barely 25 percent of the island's length - it's nowhere near the city's ZoC. There is a second AI army - the one I defeated, parked in the the woods in the middle of the island. My own army was forced to stop at the edge of its zone of control and couldn't engage with it (despite the fact, the AI's last movement was as a retreat from a defeat at the hands of my army - so should be much less than a full army movement).

I tried posting a screenshot but the steam cloud isn't responding and I don't have time to faff about with it now.

I guess I was just wondering if in DeI the Ai gets movement bonuses on the campaign map and the player gets negative movement modifiers? And what kind of movement bonus the AI gets when withdrawing from a defeat? In vanilla, after winning a battle it's usual to be able to chase down the withdrawn AI army next turn and finish it off. Ironically the AI in Dei seems to be able to do it to me but I can't do it so them.