armour_peircing vs. armor_penetrating in the melee_weapons table

[ddseddse]

I know this must have been asked and answered before, but I can't find an answer by searching.

What is the exact mechanic behind these two flags? I'm specifically talking about the True|False flags set in the DB and not the ap_damage field which I think I have a good handle on already.

If anyone could explain this, that would be great! Also the behavior behind shield_piercing would be great.

And lastly, for extra credit, if anyone could help be understand exactly how first_stike works, I would be in heaven. I know that in general it models a long weapon like a spear holding a short sword at bay, but how exactly does this work? If no one knows the exact mechanic, then even some general info would be helpful (i.e. does it only affect the initial contact, or is this factor in play for the entire time the two units are battling it out?

Any help whatsoever would be greatly appreciated!!!

[Phalangitis]

About first strike look at the last post here (http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...17#post1126717)

[ddseddse]

About first strike look at the last post here (http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...17#post1126717)

Hmm... Not sure I'm getting this. It sounds like that post is describing why spear armed units should have a high charge value, which makes sense to me, but I still don't understand how first_strike would come into play here.

So for example, let's say you have a unit of pikemen in phalanx who are not going to charge but going to just grind it out against another heavily armored unit with shorter weapons. Would first_strike only affect the initial contact (e.g. the first few seconds). They are going to be at it for something like 10 mins, so the first few seconds are really quite inconsequential, especially given the low damage of pike men, who care who gets the first hit if there will be thousands of traded blows with relatively low damage for each blow?

But then that's counter intuitive since first_strike seems like it should be a (and maybe even THE) definitive advantage for a unit armed with such long weapons.

So for me it's important to understand just exactly what the first_strike mechanic does.

[Phalangitis]

Hmm... Not sure I'm getting this. It sounds like that post is describing why spear armed units should have a high charge value, which makes sense to me, but I still don't understand how first_strike would come into play here.

So for example, let's say you have a unit of pikemen in phalanx who are not going to charge but going to just grind it out against another heavily armored unit with shorter weapons. Would first_strike only affect the initial contact (e.g. the first few seconds). They are going to be at it for something like 10 mins, so the first few seconds are really quite inconsequential, especially given the low damage of pike men, who care who gets the first hit if there will be thousands of traded blows with relatively low damage for each blow?

But then that's counter intuitive since first_strike seems like it should be a (and maybe even THE) definitive advantage for a unit armed with such long weapons.

So for me it's important to understand just exactly what the first_strike mechanic does.

In the pike example there isnt any charge usually.I think that first strike affects charging units (e.g. eastern spears,spear warriors,hoplites dissengaged from phalanx) and afects few seconds of initial collision..(making charge more fierce..)

[JaM]

these are linked with values in KV_Rules:

armour_melee_penetrating_divisor
armour_melee_piercing_divisor
defense_melee_penetrating_divisor
defense_melee_piercing_divisor

where you can set how much they should be effective against armor or defense

[ddseddse]

these are linked with values in KV_Rules:

armour_melee_penetrating_divisor
armour_melee_piercing_divisor
defense_melee_penetrating_divisor
defense_melee_piercing_divisor

where you can set how much they should be effective against armor or defense

Thanks, JaM, that's just what I needed!

[Jack Lusted]

The armour_piercing, armour_penetrating and shield_piercing fields are not used by the game.

[Phalangitis]

The armour_piercing, armour_penetrating and shield_piercing fields are not used by the game.

Its a very positive feeling to see a senior designer taking part to such threads.Thanks for your points.

[ddseddse]

Its a very positive feeling to see a senior designer taking part to such threads.Thanks for your points.

Ha, I know. I was hoping for an authoritative reply, but wasn't expecting it to be quite that authoritative.

Sounds like those flags have been replaced by the ap_damage mechanic. Well, great, that makes everything nice and simple then.

[ddseddse]

Its a very positive feeling to see a senior designer taking part to such threads.Thanks for your points.

Then how would that differ from simply boosting charge_bonus?

Is it as simple as charge_bonus is tied to the unit and first_strike is tied to the weapon?

But first_strike does not seem to be measured in the same units as charge_bonus (i.e. I don't think it is simply added to melee_attack and/or damage). So it's still a big mystery to me.

[JaM]

first strike is probably counted only for first attack (successful or not) then it is no longer used. Charge bonus is active for certain period of time.