Are OP spearmen getting fixed soon? this is completely retarded.

[meerkatology]

after much discussion and testing I compiled a TLDR of my findings:

In the current state of DeI:
early principe > imperial legion 1v1.

- spearmen in general destroys gladius and short swords due to initiative. even an mediocre group of spearmen will destroy a group of elite roman legions or greek swordsmen.
(barbarian long swords do fine because they also have high initiative. in turn they also destroy roman legions and greek swordsmen.)

- initiative is very op, it appears that it behaves like weapon range/priority, if you ever play a fighting game, when both sides attack at once, the higher priority overrides the lower. high initiative units also tend to keep lower initiative units farther away, often out of their attack range. picture pikemen vs. hoplites when you think of high initiative vs. low initiative. initiative completely trumps deadliness.

- most would agree that historically and for game play, that the way it SHOULD be: swordsmen > spearmen > cavalry > swordsman.
gladius vs. longswords - overall should be equal, with gladius being better vs. high armor, and longswords being better vs. low armor. due to the nature of stabbing vs. slashing attacks on mail armor.


After extensive testing, I made the following changes to the unit files:

hoplite spears: -2 damage, -1 initiative (+2 cav bonus to keep their anti cav damage the same)
gladius: +2 damage, +1 deadliness.
longswords: -1 initiative
falx: -1 initiative
greekswords: +1 damage
long spears (anti cav): no change
pikemen: no change

so far from testing by myself and some others, under this system, in a 1v1 between similar tiered units, formation attack on, frontal assault, grass plains, non or equal general influence, the results are:

longswords vs. gladius = even
gladius vs. spearmen = gladius win, decent margin
longswords vs. spearmen = longswords win, decent margin
hoplite phalanx vs. gladius = about even (after full face of pila)
gladius vs. greekswords = gladius small advantage
anti cav spearmen vs. longswords = longswords win, decent to large margin
anti cav spearmen vs. gladius = gladius win, decent to large margin
anti cav spearmen vs. hoplite spears = close

i feel this is a better balance and more historically accurate with swords being > spears while phalanx from the front about breaks even with swords.
gladius being equal to longswords most of the time. while gladius slightly > greekswords as greeks were a hoplite culture and their swordsmen shouldn't be as good as legions.
haven't done much testing with 2h infantry, but they seem to generally destroy other infantry, which is acceptable to me as they are very vulnerable to missles due to lack of shield.
have not done much testing with pikemen, but swordsmen destroy them if they can engage from rear or flank.

heres my modded Pack 1 file if anyone whats to test it and give me feedback
http://depositfiles.com/files/3ls8s11uv
(simply move the first DeI pack file and replace with this)


P.S - the title is merely to get some attention, not to insult the dev's. They took a steaming pile of and made it into something of worth, i only hope that one day DeI will become the RS II of Rome 2.
and for all you non-devs that are getting butthurt about the title... send me a PM and i will reply with a formal signed apology letter as well as send someone to your house to give you a very special hug!

P.S.S - i guess i missed the point of "TLDR"

[zonks40]

I don't know, I played a head to head campaign against my son, he had the Cantabri while I played as Macedonia, And I was having a hell of a time using even my elite spear units against his swordsmen, It seems this forum is full of opposites, it's almost as if people are playing different mods.

[Butan]

I don't know, I played a head to head campaign against my son, he had the Cantabri while I played as Macedonia, And I was having a hell of a time using even my elite spear units against his swordsmen, It seems this forum is full of opposites, it's almost as if people are playing different mods.

Some swordmen have 1 point in initiative and 2 points of deadliness.
Those kind of swordmen are the most OP units in the game (then relative to their particular stats ofc).


Weapon initiative and weapon deadliness and their relative power against one another (and when combined) have pros and cons and sometimes it shows. Particularly when you have a game roster of hundreds of units to take care of.
Except trying to make every one of those units balanced between one another (which is a work of all instants) there isnt much to do (or remove initiative/deadliness in favor of another system).

spearmen > cavalry > swordsmen > spearmen.... not spearmen > all

It may sound offensive, but you have to de-learn this when you play DeI. Initiative/deadliness are put atop "bonus vs large" and all the other stats, so you have to take care of much more than whats the class tag of the unit you're using.

[meerkatology]

Some swordmen have 1 point in initiative and 2 points of deadliness.
Those kind of swordmen are the most OP units in the game (then relative to their particular stats ofc).


Weapon initiative and weapon deadliness and their relative power against one another (and when combined) have pros and cons and sometimes it shows. Particularly when you have a game roster of hundreds of units to take care of.
Except trying to make every one of those units balanced between one another (which is a work of all instants) there isnt much to do (or remove initiative/deadliness in favor of another system).




It may sound offensive, but you have to de-learn this when you play DeI. Initiative/deadliness are put atop "bonus vs large" and all the other stats, so you have to take care of much more than whats the class tag of the unit you're using.

while this is true, one can't possibly justify early principe destroying imperial legionary in a 1v1. espeically that spearmen already "counter" cavalry, if swordsmen cant beat spearmen and they are also worse vs. cavalry then wtf are they even there for?

i'm actaully in favor of removing weapon initiative. deadliness can stay as AP dmg for axemen etc. then all you have to do is balance AP units with less overall damage or melee/defense skill, its one less stat to muddle with and i don't think it really takes anything away from the combat system.

for instance spearmen would have +bonus to cav while gladii have more AP dmg etc. the combat system already has enough variables, to me, weapon initiative doesn't really add anything to gameplay or realism.

the onlything that would really give you "initiative" would be like pikemen and cavalry charge, which are done prefectly already anyway

[antred]

I don't know, I played a head to head campaign against my son, he had the Cantabri while I played as Macedonia, And I was having a hell of a time using even my elite spear units against his swordsmen, It seems this forum is full of opposites, it's almost as if people are playing different mods.

That's because most barbarian swordsmen have an initiative rating of 2 or at least 1 while Roman heavy infantry have an initiative rating of 0.

P.S. I find it pretty ridiculous that some swordsmen should have higher initiative than spear-armed triarii. So many unit statistics seem completely arbitrary anyway. You see some guys walking around in mail armor and yet they sometimes have a lower armor rating than other units that barely seem to wear any armor at all.

[antred]

P.S. I find it pretty ridiculous that some swordsmen should have higher initiative than spear-armed triarii. So many unit statistics seem completely arbitrary anyway. You see some guys walking around in mail armor and yet they sometimes have a lower armor rating than other units that barely seem to wear any armor at all.

By the way, I've recently built an auxilia baracks in Scotland and was able to recruit a cavalry unit with melee attack / defense in 35 - 40 range and weapons initiative 2 (deadliness 1)!! CAVALRY!!!

[Draikz]

And again... : What difficulty are you playing on?

[meerkatology]

And again... : What difficulty are you playing on?

battle difficulty on normal of course, my posts are emo but im not retarded geez

testing in custom. go try yourself.

[Lustmord]

@meerkatology: Dont you already have another thread with the same topic? Is there really a need for two of them?

[meerkatology]

that one was regarding phalanxs, this one, regular spearmen.

since people are insisting that any phalanx should own anything from the front, its hard to argue , so i bring up the fact that regular spearmen destroy elite swordsmen even without phalanx.

curious as to what kind of excuses people are going to come up with this time...

[Butan]

Does spears would still work without initiative though? Or would it be preferable to just give them less overall?

Same question for pikes?



I think if we were to remove (or at least replace) weapon initiative, it would mean that the devs have to re-work every unit stats which had weapon initiative to support them. It would need a pretty big incentive to do that

[student23]

i can't possibly be the only one noticing this.

so get this:

early principe > imperial legion 1v1.

test it as many times as you want - make sure both sides throw pila.
its hilarious how retarded initiative is.

lower tier spearmen destroy higher tier swordsmen even without phalanx because of weapon initiative


here's how its supposed to work: spearmen > cavalry > swordsmen > spearmen.... not spearmen > all



plz tell me this getting fixed in 0.9

Are you gonna open a new thread for the same issue every 5 days or will you finally learn how to play and stop bothering the rest of us?

[antred]

Are you gonna open a new thread for the same issue every 5 days or will you finally learn how to play and stop bothering the rest of us?

While I agree there is no need for a new thread when the old one is still around I do not agree with your high-handed dismissal of his opinion. There ARE serious balancing issues in the mod, and they SHOULD be discussed.

[Soul Firez]

While I agree there is no need for a new thread when the old one is still around I do not agree with your high-handed dismissal of his opinion. There ARE serious balancing issues in the mod, and they SHOULD be discussed.

While i do not doubt there are some balance issues to the mod the op's thread actually does beg to be dismissed not because he doesnt raise some valid issues but by the mere tone of his title. yes such a great way to get people to do work for you for free call what they have already done for free retarded.... All i can say is he is lucky i am not a mod of the forum as his thread would be closed so quick it wouldnt be funny.

If the OP expects to be taken serious and treated with respect he should maybe try acting worthy of it and showing respect to others including the creators of the mod who he wants them to re work for him and is basicly calling them retarded...

[meerkatology]

While i do not doubt there are some balance issues to the mod the op's thread actually does beg to be dismissed not because he doesnt raise some valid issues but by the mere tone of his title. yes such a great way to get people to do work for you for free call what they have already done for free retarded.... All i can say is he is lucky i am not a mod of the forum as his thread would be closed so quick it wouldnt be funny.

If the OP expects to be taken serious and treated with respect he should maybe try acting worthy of it and showing respect to others including the creators of the mod who he wants them to re work for him and is basicly calling them retarded...

i use exaggerations in my titles to make a point. i'm not trying to insult the modders, the fact that i even post here and care about balance in this mod means i like to play this mod over the 300 other ones.

not sure why people, the non dev's at that, get so butthurt over the title and can't even evaluate the actual content of the discussion.
I'll sure will choose more carebear titles in the future.
"I think you know, maybe that spearmen initiative might be a little bit maybe too strong.. but if you have a different opinion i respect that."

there's your politically correct title.

back to topic, by swordsmen i mean normal swordsmen not the ones with initiative of 2... they are equally op as spearmen.

[Barune]

i use exaggerations in my titles to make a point. i'm not trying to insult the modders, the fact that i even post here and care about balance in this mod means i like to play this mod over the 300 other ones.

You may not be trying to, but by using said exaggerations you put yourself in the "Attention seeking" category, and using insulting/offensive language just shows disrespect.

not sure why people, the non dev's at that, get so butthurt over the title and can't even evaluate the actual content of the discussion.
I'll sure will choose more carebear titles in the future.
"I think you know, maybe that spearmen initiative might be a little bit maybe too strong.. but if you have a different opinion i respect that."

there's your politically correct title.

Now you seem to be the one taking offense, imagine that.

back to topic, by swordsmen i mean normal swordsmen not the ones with initiative of 2... they are equally op as spearmen.

Now as for the topic of this thread.

In your Custom battle tests, Do you account for 1v1 units being generals and getting bonus' because they are generals?

As someone also already stated custom battles can't account for the difference in stat boosts from buildings/generals/traits you would have in an actual campaign.

Whats balanced in the campaign, might not be so in the custom battles.

Also, DeI is not even officially released yet. The mod you are playing is considered an OPEN BETA, and will continue to be so until v1.0 and beyond. If you want to help the mod develop and truly care about the balance of the mod, try using CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Not telling the modders how their mod should work and insulting them/the situation. yes it can be frustrating, but you need to learn to collect your thoughts and express them in a more mature way. Then people would be more open to discussing/debating with you, rather then just blowing you off. Food for thought.

[Alexander Iulianus Verus]

i use exaggerations in my titles to make a point. i'm not trying to insult the modders, the fact that i even post here and care about balance in this mod means i like to play this mod over the 300 other ones.

not sure why people, the non dev's at that, get so butthurt over the title and can't even evaluate the actual content of the discussion.
I'll sure will choose more carebear titles in the future.
"I think you know, maybe that spearmen initiative might be a little bit maybe too strong.. but if you have a different opinion i respect that."
there's your politically correct title.

back to topic, by swordsmen i mean normal swordsmen not the ones with initiative of 2... they are equally op as spearmen.

I have been very honest with my friends, family coworkers and strangers, and I will say that your posts resemble more-so to me a childish attitude, and that when I read them, I forget you are a father, and instead believe you more the son. That said, I do value what you have to say, and I think we would all benefit greatly from your continued criticism and deep appreciation to make this the best mod out there.

So with both those things in mind, I hope we can all move forward in the future with a better approach. I for one would love to continue reading what you have to write, but without the xyz.

[KAM 2150]

I did my own tests and OP is right about those units. I took enemy general with my general away from combat so only inf was fighting. But...during campaign early principes will be gone quickly and until you will reach imperial legionares your armies, tech and generals will give your infantry HUGE boosts. If for example legionares were already made stronger, with those buffs they will be even more overpowered.

Yet, from what I have seen today, initiative and deadlines works oppostie way. In that fight, legionares had lower damage and initiative, but powerformed MUCH better in the beggining of the combat, propably due to deadliness. Later on, principes got the upper hand when both units lost around 40 men and onward principes started to own tchem badly. As you can see, initiative actually boosted unit in prolonged melee. This might have happened also due to higher damage of principes (15) compared to legionares (11).

What should have closer look are the armor values. Principes do not have that good armor, but their rating is 46, the same as some elite heavy hoplites.

[krunsh]

Was it really needed to have "retarded" written in the title (As well as in your following posts.)? not only it's offensive on its own and completely useless, but it is also not how you bring a constructive opinion on a mod that is built for free.

Do not insult the modders work, and while you are at it, please learn basic tact and remove this from the title. Thank you.

[Archesel]

Was it really needed to have "retarded" written in the title (As well as in your following posts.)? not only it's offensive on its own and completely useless, but it is also not how you bring a constructive opinion on a mod that is built for free.

Do not insult the modders work, and while you are at it, please learn basic tact and remove this from the title. Thank you.

That was needed to be said.

What we should do now, is waiting for one of the mod team members to have an answer about the problem that is pointed out.