Strategy basics, please help

[Pan_lotr]

I'm currently playing as silvan elves and because I'm playing it at medium I've had the chance to explore the game a bit but I think I'm doing something wrong. First of all my strategy is to immediately spend all the money for trade/income buildings while using the starting armies conquer the nearest/easiest cities. Since I'm playing in medium I knew it would really be challenging so I could have all my cities at low taxes for growth. Now fast forwarding to turn 260 or so, with Isengard, Gundaband and Misty Mountains gone (and most of their lands mine), a general in every city and most of the big ones presumably maxed growth wise (no growth at low taxes in caras caradron, moria, thranduil's halls etc), I struggle to support 3 full banners while my largest cities' buildings are far from maxed and all my cities hold only free upkeep units. Am I doing something wrong? And no I haven't managed to build any dancer's guilds even though I've built 4-5 of the Gwayth thingies :/

P.S. I must point out that from the beggining of the game I've only lost 4 or 5 general so these 3 full banners include around 10 generals all in all.
P.S.2 Also I build many watchtowers and a few forts, do these have an upkeep by any chance?

Thanks in advance!

[ThaDoews]

First, do you use any submods or play vanilla TATW? You should be doing fine, but the game IS challenging! You do what i do, build income buildings and low growth, which come in handy later in game. Watchtowers everywhere is a must - for me. Though i can see all enemy and ally movement along my borders. Which is nice for planning attacks/defends. What you do wrong is having a large army with lots of generals! They cost like 500 gold pr. turn! They aren't cheap! Instead have one in every city to improve growth and to get good traits(see some guides to learn how). Have around 3 good stacks with 1 or 2 generals in command and then screw the others... Get them killed Be sure to get the best units in freeupkeep to get the best defend of your cities...

[Veteraan]

You don't mention roads. If you haven't done so already be sure to build and upgrade them. They will boost your income considerably.
The same goes for most mines.

You can check in the building browser which level a city can reach.

It is possible to "(ab)use" the forts to keep costs down. They will hold 2 units free of upkeep and (p.s.2) they, as the watchtowers, have zero upkeep themselves.

Generals cost an awful lot in upkeep. Make sure the ones that are in your cities earn their upkeep.

3 full banners of Silvan Elves with 10 generals (very expensive!) should be able to cope with almost anything that comes your way. especially on medium difficulty.

Edit: by the Danish guy in the same minute of posting!

[Pan_lotr]

Thanks for your replies! I give top priority to roads but because of my economic state I rarely build any 5000 and over buildings that dont directly produce income. The thing is, 3 full banners may be more than enough in medium mode but say I had achieved the same in vh mode, with lands from carn dum to margaland and isengard to thranduil halls, shouldn't I be submerged in gold? XD Instead in vh mode 3 banners wouldn't be enough for offence... Is the AI so helped that they can keep about half their cities with full banners?

[Flinn]

hi Pan_lotr, well met

yes the AI gets a lot of bonuses; basically the AI cannot bankrupt (there is a script that gives money to AI as soon as it goes in the red), which means that they can recruit and mantain much more units that a player with the same economy. Someone finds it bad, I personally like it because the AI is too week at all levels and it's not able at all to manage money and investments. Similarly the AI gets the bonus from the Garrison Script and from the Help Weakened Faction Script and other minor scripts that spawns extra army for them at the begenning of the game. If you get a look in the FAQ http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...sked-Questions you can learn how to remove/change some of those scripts, though I suggest only to reduce the difficulty (as you did already )

as per your question with economy issues: that's a matter that would deserve thousands of words .

- Anyway, the two gents above have put it down well, let me insist in the fact that you really don't need so much generals, in particular if we consider that they are not cavalry units; they are cool, they are reliable, but they are too small in numbers to really be able to change the tide of the battle, IMO.. so just keep a couple of generals per each army you have and one good governor in the most important cities (to learn how to train them, look here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...on-60-Complete)

- Have you considered the impact of corruption in your empire? the bigger the kingdmos is the higher the corruption; in order to lover it put the capital in the center of the same. Check on the economy report, how much it says on corruption?

- Finally, it is not always correct to keep low taxes, quoting myself :

An extra note on taxation levels: even though the general rule is to keep taxes to low level to encourage population growth, this is not a must, and a good turtler should learn when and where rasing taxes is the correct choice; let's have a look on my idea.
Some settlements do not really need to grow up population: Minas Tirith, Moria, Erebor just to mention the most known, start as full developed settlements, so there is no real need to grow up the population as you are not going to upgrade them; for such settlements having normal tax as a standard should be the rule in the beginning, raised to high and then to very high as soon as you can do it without badly effecting public order. At the same time there are also other settlements which are almost completely developed (first level of stone walls), for those too it won't be very useful to set tax to low, I like to keep them to normal as a standard, because at this stage the city already has many buildings to be built and by the time you have built them all the city should be very close to the quantity of pupulation needed for the last level of development.
Villages: villages should always have low taxes and if you have him, you should also send there a general with 7 or more Respect (grants 0,5% pop growth), because villages are pretty useless both from the economic and the military point of view (and they can't even garrison a single unit for free!).
Towns: growth should be encouraged here, but you should also keep in mind where they are located compared to your borders, because, in particular for those towns which already have walls but start with a population of 500, it might take a while before they'll be developed to Large Towns and by this time your front will probably be very far from there; in this case I prefer to have normal or even high taxes on them, as their military impact will be null and the immediate increase in income can be really useful to develop cities and castles that will be your main recruitment centers.
Large Towns: same as above, much depends on the position of the same.
Final notice: never forget that before of anything you have to develop your income, so growing it is important of course, but if you don't have money to build that fairground on Minas Tirith or that Warehouse on Esgaroth, well having a bigger population means little, so when you need money to invest them in economic buildings, RAISE the taxes if this is the only solution.

actually lowering taxes is only useful to make the settlements grow faster, have a look here for a short discussion we had on them http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...n-and-tax-rate

sorry for the wall of text, hope it helps

[bunnysbestfriend]

Having lots of governors is probably the big issue. 10 generals in 3 armies are a lot but they should not be the dealbreaker. If you replace 4-6 with units those units also cost upkeep. Replacing 4-6 generals with units may spare you 1000 gold per turn which is not that much in turn 260. A general in a settlement also costs 500 upkeep. However in villages and towns they may only earn 100-200 gold so they are not earning their upkeep. Having 20 generals in towns and villages where they don't earn their upkeep amounts to spending 6000-8000 extra per turn. This equals the upkeep of a full stack with reinforcements. So be very selective with adoptions and put generals only in settlements where you really need them or where they can earn their upkeep. Which would be your population centers and the better mining settlements. Also you might consider moving your capital towards the geometric center of your income generators. This reduces corruption and can easily get you another 1000 in income per turn.

[bland12]

So I too have this problem. I am on turn 80+ with Gondor and I just fended off an invasion where I took out 5 full stack armies before losing MT (2500 gold per turn) Yet due to the loss of generals and armies I didnt go into the red at all. However I keep production at maximum levels, I am constantly trying to pump out roads/mines/growth buildings while keeping taxes at normal to very high in every settlement that can sustain growth with those taxation levels... Yet I too am still poor!

Is there a better strategy to building up cities? Do you build up one or two settlements first? Or do you go for a kingdom wide approach?

[bunnysbestfriend]

I have little experience with Gondor. I prefer backwater factions where you can build at your leisure before engaging enemies, like Eriador, Elves, Harad, Rhun, Dale (I also like archer heavy factions). I never played Gondor at VH/VH. With those backwater factions you can do a landgrab against rebels, build up, then strike. In the early to middle phase you have seldom wars against more than two factions going and those factions tend to be the weaker factions like orcs.

With Gondor I find the southern expedition strategy very appealing. The basic idea is to remove as much pressure as possible from Gondor while hurting the buildup of one of your strongest enemies. This earns time for building up your settlements and your forces. Basically you concentrate most of the troops of southern and western Gondor in a strike force which can capture Umbar. Use all the troops available, so you don't have to build many units. If a settlement can go without a garrison, put the garrison in a strike force. You can build a new garrison when the need arises. Use most of your generals in the field, not as governors.

You will want to expand in four directions. Westernmost there are some rebel settlements which you can capture with a small force. The most important settlement to grab is Lond Angren. You should do everthing to get this before anyone else does. The idea is to trade this settlement to the High Elves for the price of an alliance. This will bring the High Elves into action against Dunland and Isengard which will help Rohan and Eriador a lot. It also gives them some territory to expand into which will help to prevent them from declaring war on the Dwarfs. Also your economy will profit from trade with the elves. You may have to station a little garrision at Lond Angren to prevent it from going rebel because the Elves will have no units there in the beginning.

The Umbar expedition force has the task to capture Umbar and loot it. You don't plan to keep Umbar forever. Keeping it a couple of turns doesn't hurt, but if Harad undertakes a serious effort to take it back prepare to give it up. You can build a few watchtowers around Umbar to see Harad coming, but else you should build nothing at Umbar. Exept may be a temple to convert the population, which eases the necessary garrison size. If Harad advances raze every building in Umbar and let it go rebel. While your expedition force is there you can also loot some other settlements on Harads cost. If Harad doesn't take back Umbar by the time you have Ithilien under control you can consider keeping Umbar and build it up. The main function of taking Umbar is to distract Harad from the Anduin and to weaken it.

In the east try to get some settlement in Ithilien and trade one for an alliance, preferable with the Lorien Elves or Sylvan Elves. Try to get as many factions into war with Mordor as early you can, especially Elves. Gifting settlements is an excellent way to do this. Don't worry about an Ithilien settlement in the hand of your allies, they will lose it soon against Mordor where you can take it back for yourself. (Of course giving them something between Dol Guldur and the Black Gate would be preferable, but this may overstretch your forces.) The net effect is a new ally which is at war with Mordor. If Mordor has many wars going it may enable you to make a temporary peace with Mordor so they send their stacks elsewhere and you can go for a landgrab against Harad. If Mordor sends their stacks elsewhere they will fight sooner or later against garrison scripts which will help reduce those stacks. Nothing is better to your cause than Mordor stacks walking long distances for upkeep and then dissolving against free garrison script troops.

A medium force (half stack) in the southeast can conquer some rebel settlements before Harad does. Your Umbar distraction will help them. If things go well, Harad splits up its forces so they won't accomplish anything. If the opportunity arises, strike hard and finish Harad early. When conquering Harad, looting is more important than preserving population for the long run. If your early rush runs out of steam which might happen, then a recaptured looted city will be of less use to Harad than a preserved one. If you want to retreat from Harad consider disbanding unexperienced troops. This will save you a couple of turns in upkeep during a time where those troops have no value. You can train new troops which are no worse and can benefit from free upkeep. If you have multiple units of the same kind in one army you can transfer experience with merging those units but this can be considered gamey. (Merge troops from an experienced unit into an unexperienced unit, so that the experienced unit will remain with few men. Be careful that the experienced unit does not dissolve. The experienced unit may even gain more experience through this and forms a core elite which can be retrained later with full experience. The unexperienced unit to which the troops were transfered will remain unexperienced and can be dissolved. This will preserve the experience from your army with very little upkeep. Just beware from getting into fights with your stripped core because they have no numbers until retrained.)

All this will cost you some upkeep because your troops will be in the field and not in the settlements where they have free upkeep. Looting may balance this somewhat but probably you won't have enough money to build everything everywhere. When building things, build first in your population centers and in your troop recruiting centers. Neglect secondary settlements if you have to. You need roads to the front from your recruiting centers. This makes for faster reinforcements which will cost you less upkeep. The population in big settlements works as a leverage for your buildings, so build there first. Don't hire generals, you have enough from the start.

[LuckyPistol]

Honestly, I wouldn't even build a culture building in Umbar. You should try and get it to rebel by the next two turns so you don't waste any time.

But bunnysbestfriend has the right idea, just go down over to Umbar and do something along the lines of this:

[One Seven Five]

Build roads and mines. Even though they may be expensive at higher tiers, they will significantly increase your trade goods and income.

[manekemaan]

I tend to build like this

1) Grain exchange (because not having this causes sucky governors)
2) at least 1 unit recruitment building ( for the free upkeep)
3)farming stuf (increases pop growth which increases everything else + adds some stable income)
4) roads
5) ports
6) markets
7) The extra population buildings
8) other beneficial buildings.

I also only build a brothel in 1 town (causes bad traits)
The ports and the roads may interchange, depending on which profides the most significant boost. (Like on an island, roads aint gonna do much.)
Also this is when starting from a low level town. When having higher level towns keep the cost in mind. I keep the same order but i also look at the "tiers" of the buildings (like gravel roads, paved roads, ...)

Never keep more then free upkeep in provinces that don't require direct defenses.
Only adopt generals when your general is 40+ and doesn't have 40 kids (like denethor)
Use your generals to boost your income


etc etc.

If you want more specific ;-)

[bland12]

So I've put in practice a lot of these as Gondor. I killed off about 5 generals which, holy crap, I didn't realize were costing me so much! they cost over 2500 gold per turn and at best were bringing in 1000 as govs. I also made sure they didn't go to waste. They managed to take out some harad generals in turn.

I then managed to broker a ceasefire with Mordor for 20+ turns allowing me to take Umbar and sack it, then destroy all the buildings in it for the gold. I then took the two nearest Harad cities on the mainland south of Gondor and have been able to hold them pretty easily at this point. I was also able to get advance tier recruiting centers during the ceasefire with Mordor. Moved my capital to Dol Amoroth as well and it now brings in close to 3K gold a turn, along with MT bringing in 3500 a turn.

I just had an invasion called on my new capital, which is actaully great because I have a huge fleet so I can defend the seas easily and then with it being in the middle of my country I have been able to rally two stacks fairly quick. I have so far taken out a full stack harad army, then subsequently kill their main general and 3 family members (where are you oh king of harad!) I've killed two nazgul generals, and then the Isengard heir. The misty mountain orcs are gone already, Rhun only has 3 cities and are actively defending against dale + silvan elves. Gundabad orcs are fighting a full out 3 way war with the dwarvs, elves but the elves and dwarvs are now fighting each other as well.

Still it seems like any peace I can get with Mordor is great. I tried to march on the black gate recently with Aragon and a full stack, but Mordor has been able to pump so many units out that I didn't even get to siege before I had to go back and retrain everyone. Now Mordor has siege henneth anun, cair andrus, and minus morgul.

ANY TIPS FOR HANDLING MORDOR?! I gave the elves the settlement underneath the falls after I took it, but it rebelled in like 2 turns XD

[Flinn]

ANY TIPS FOR HANDLING MORDOR?!

if you have time, just click on the link below my signature (turtling guide) and go to the Special: Gondor turtling guide (easy to see, red bold text); there you can find my strategy to keep mordor at bay when they are at war with you.

hope it helps mate

[Bladvak]

ANY TIPS FOR HANDLING MORDOR?!

I'll join in this thread, as it appears that I've got a few things to say that you should know.

At 100+ turns, attacking with one stack is going to be difficult and futile. Especially when going against the full might of Mordor. What do you do? Keep a reserve stack right next to your attack stack. Make sure that the reserve stack DOES NOT have a general with night capabilities and that the attack stack has that. Quite useful when all you want from the reserve stack is to replenish the units and your computer might not be able to handle all those men on the battlefield.

2nd tip: make sure that your units can be easily replenishable - usually from Minas Tirith and they are only 3-4 different types. Go with a type of elite infantry, a type of medium infantry, a type of archers and a type of whatever else you might want - cavalry maybe. This way you can add the men from the units and send back to replenishment units with 6-10 men instead of 30-50. Also, do not use Dol Amroth AoR units against Mordor, that's a pain in the bottom. Also, the attack stack might be useful to have 1-2 generals with special abilities, they are good force-multipliers.

3rd tip: combine your attack on the Black Gate with an attack on Minas Morgul. Harass Mordor with attacks from either base, once you conquer either one. Draw Mordor's units to the newly conquered city, then take the other one once it is depleted of units. If one of those two is attacked, use the units from the unattacked city to go and swiftly conquer Barad-dur and pillage at will. Divide and conquer. Once Barad-dur is down, everything will become a huge mopping up operation against trapped mice.

I gave the elves the settlement underneath the falls after I took it, but it rebelled in like 2 turns XD

never to that again. don't gift settlements to factions far away or that do share the majority culture in the town, because they will rebel.
also, if you re-take that town after gifting it, it will cause a huge drop in relations with that faction.
it's simply a huge no, don't do that.

[bland12]

I'll check it out. Thanks Hombre!

[Lortano]

Gondor is the killer faction. I've seen people like SurrealBeliefs toast Mordor with the Divide and Conquer submod using his starting units and a Blitzkrieg style all out assault. Trouble is, if it's not really your style to attack like that you end up penned in with Harad and Mordor slowly pincering you.

Fortunately, Umbar should be the only place that harad cna get Mumakil, so build up a small navy at Dol Amroth and nuke it. IF you can hold it, you effectively have a beachead to expand. If you can get peace with Mordor, even better.

[Steward Denethor II]

If the town you sell changes ownership you can conqueror it without losing reputation.

[riuk881]

To my knowledge the Gwyth buildings don't do much so I would waste money on them.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Some strategy and tactics hints:

Always fight uphill battles.

Never defend bridges against an overwhelming enemy force, but instead fight them in the open field.

Thucydides was wrong. Navies are completely unimportant.

Do not build a strong economy. Instead, rely on sacking cities.

Let the enemy capture your capital to trick them into being complacent.

[Lord-too-fat]

Ive always found it easier to fight on bridges^ just bottleneck them with infantry, use archers to thin out the ones in the back, and ride them down with cavalry if the rout!