Rome II Total Realism - Beta Feedback and Suggestions

[Malistair]

Modders,

Campaign: Love the concept of the mod so far. Couple of issues that I am experiencing, not sure if I am just new or if some values are overly harsh. I cannot seem to keep my cities from rebelling on me despite keeping my armies out of the cities and building several public order bonus buildings. I believe that the cultural penalties might be to severe at the moment for the player to keep pace. Again, take that with a grain of salt as I might just need to learn how to play within your mod's parameters.

Battle: I think that the morale penalties for "unsupported" and exposed flank are a little to powerful at the moment. I tried to maneuver fresh units around an enemy flank while a broken unit was retreating while being chased by my cavalry. The instant the unit that was routing reformed (just prior to cav hitting them) my units that were moving towards the enemy flank routed as they had their backs to the reformed unit.

I hope that I have provided useful feedback. Again great work.

[La Tene]

just some more feedback:

Phalanx seems to overpowered - the damage on pike seemes to high, also, they don't seem any more vulnerable from the side - attacking them from behind barely inflict any casualties on them. (silver shields and royal pikes especially, even if they are elits they shouldn't be this OPed)

Morale is still a bit broken, i find that increasing base morale to roughly 50 fixes most issued, but still. just a thought, why not make morale more resistance per unit, but make the casualties_sustained (for the army) a lot higher penalty, so instead of having single units routing almost constantly, it would make each unit stay longer, but the once an army has reached a certain total % dead, it [every unit] receives massive morale penalty?

except for that, it's great. naval combat especially.

I've been custom battle testing to try and replicate this OP'd phalanx claim, I don't see it. Pikes are slow and don't do a lot of damage but rather are a highly defensive unit from the fronts.

I disagree about the morale. Fighting battalions don't wait to see half their army die before fleeing in battle, rather, when they feel that they themselves are under a severe threat, they are very likely to panic, which leads to the route of course. The morale effects for this mod feel many times more realistic to me in comparison to vanilla or other mods. However, I think there's a bit of work needed to get the battle flow in a more realistic way... I think cavalry move speeds are too much, cavalry is too agile and capable of being anywhere *which in fact leads to unrealistic routing scenarios* I think ... because I've been able to flank attack 4 or 5 units within the first short minutes of battle. I think they need more mass, less agility ie: more delay before accelerating but a bit harder hitting at speeds.

2. Skirmisher units seem to move too fast on the battle terrain too. I think that an athletic soldier certainly could move quickly like they do here but not with such high stamina. It seems to me that stamina, overall, could come down a bit.

3. Javelin armed units should probably have less ammunition, fewer shots per minute, but probably more damage, to reflect realism better.

4. I'd like to see units lose their attack formations while in combat a bit more because formation attack looks rather unrealistic often, especially when units are overlapping each other but still holding their own independent formations.

I have all these criticisms but please keep in mind, I think this mod team is way ahead of the competition in both battle and campaign mechanics.

[Finn]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Your thoughts, observations and gripes are very useful to us indeed. We keep track of all comments and use them to hopefully make this mod a worthy successor to RTR

[LestaT]

There are some changes in CA's Patch 13.1 which may affect the mod and may need some rework. There's also upcoming Patch 14 (which I hope will be in optional beta rather than surprise release like this) which we intend to release a major update to the mod when that patch goes live.

General battle improvements

Cavalry can now break away from infantry less easily in all battles.
Increased the cost of armoured elephants.
Improved terrain heights and building positions in Pydna Historical Battle.
Fix for raiding horsemen having wrong shield type.
Fix for Illyrian Raiders having wrong armour type.
Wind will now affect more particles during battles, e.g. smoke will be blown in the wind direction.

General campaign improvements

Added 9 new seasonal festival events across all Campaigns.
Some Getae objectives that were not completing now are.
Fix for Dacian Bowmen not being recruitable from upgraded buildings.
Fix for Hellenic wine subject choice giving the wrong effects.
Added new Balkan sword (melee weapon stats) for balancing and assigned to Thracian peltasts.
Bonus vs. large added to Rhomphaia and Falx.
Buffed Thracian Peltasts in melee.
Illyrian hoplites and noble hoplites now have Hoplite Wall ability.
Swapped ships for Illyrian Raiders, added Illyrian Raider ship to all the correct port levels.
Fix for technology missing a link to previous technology.
Fix for melee attack penalty in battles for Balkan group generals units.
Added Thracian Warriors to settlement garrison units.
Fix for units not being available from all appropriate building levels.
Added naked warriors to Nervii unit roster.

[Causeless]

The issue in morale isn't really with the fact that it's low. The issue is how quickly it fluctuates - a unit can go from fully excited and eager to routing in a few seconds, even if just being attacked from the front with no flanking pressure. It's fine that a unit will be scared and begin routing if it's losing - but the player should be able to fix that by bringing in reinforcements, or replacing the unit. Right now it's impossible to do either because by the time you act, it's too late. On top of that, it's impossible frequently to even disengage units because simply turning around causes a morale shock, and thus a rout. Units should only rout if they've been under pressure for at least some time, not the literal half-second of pressure from a unit revealing it's back from moving to disengage.

EDIT:

Also, to work around the invalid "unit attacked in flank" when a unit is slightly rotated or behind/ahead of the main battle line a tiny amount, perhaps the unit attacked in flank morale loss should be a lot smaller compared to the attacked in rear morale loss?

[La Tene]

The issue in morale isn't really with the fact that it's low. The issue is how quickly it fluctuates - a unit can go from fully excited and eager to routing in a few seconds, even if just being attacked from the front with no flanking pressure. It's fine that a unit will be scared and begin routing if it's losing - but the player should be able to fix that by bringing in reinforcements, or replacing the unit. Right now it's impossible to do either because by the time you act, it's too late. On top of that, it's impossible frequently to even disengage units because simply turning around causes a morale shock, and thus a rout. Units should only rout if they've been under pressure for at least some time, not the literal half-second of pressure from a unit revealing it's back from moving to disengage.

EDIT:

Also, to work around the invalid "unit attacked in flank" when a unit is slightly rotated or behind/ahead of the main battle line a tiny amount, perhaps the unit attacked in flank morale loss should be a lot smaller compared to the attacked in rear morale loss?

I flatly disagree. In warfare it is a great feat of a general to even persuade his troops to march on to the battle field - consider all the depictions in movies where armies would face each other, negotiate, and withdraw. These are based on real accounts and it reflects the fact that when you march on an army, you are literally staring death in the face. Troops don't take this lightly, in fact it is terrifying. Now, if you are staring at an army with your shield and dagger pointed directly at them, you're likely to feel A LOT more secure than the event in which a pile of troops are storming you and your comrades while you're engaged elsewhere, or even simply facing a direction in which you cannot defend yourself.

I do not think vanilla nor any mod aside from total realism captures the sense of dread that soldiers on the battle field experience. Again, I think that cavalry are too agile for this mod given that they are capable of getting those high morale shocks on multiple units in a rather short time frame. In fact I have demolished AI armies over and over due to my cavalry maneuvers, I really hope they get this aspect of the mod fixed up..

[Cidalsleepwalker]

I flatly disagree. In warfare it is a great feat of a general to even persuade his troops to march on to the battle field - consider all the depictions in movies where armies would face each other, negotiate, and withdraw. These are based on real accounts and it reflects the fact that when you march on an army, you are literally staring death in the face. Troops don't take this lightly, in fact it is terrifying. Now, if you are staring at an army with your shield and dagger pointed directly at them, you're likely to feel A LOT more secure than the event in which a pile of troops are storming you and your comrades while you're engaged elsewhere, or even simply facing a direction in which you cannot defend yourself.

I do not think vanilla nor any mod aside from total realism captures the sense of dread that soldiers on the battle field experience. Again, I think that cavalry are too agile for this mod given that they are capable of getting those high morale shocks on multiple units in a rather short time frame. In fact I have demolished AI armies over and over due to my cavalry maneuvers, I really hope they get this aspect of the mod fixed up..

Here is my problem with this: I literally have won battles because the AI is too stupid to effectively maneuver its men without them suffering the morale shock and insta-shattering. I have seen units break with only 5 men lost, before they even make contact. I have had units shatter from being "flanked" because there was a unit on the other side of some buildings as they walked past. It's not a realism thing at this point; I'm all for realism. I love it in fact, but not at the expense of entertaining gameplay. It makes the battles too easy and somewhat boring when all I have to do is line my men up and wait for the AI to mismanage their men into routing. The morale definitely needs a tweak, but only a teeny tiny bit and it would make maneuvering your men more satisfying and battles more challenging.

[JaM]

Actually, we are waiting for patch14 to see if CA fixes some bugs that are still in game which cause some issues with how flanking morale penalties are given (you can get flanking penalty even if attacked from front). Once we know what will be fixed we can start adjusting the morale settings based on that. Personally i don't want to rework entire concept with every CA patch, therefore we are in waiting mode right now. Anyway, I'm grateful for any feedback, because it allows us to improve our work further. Nothing is written in stone, a lot of things will change over time.

[Causeless]

I flatly disagree. In warfare it is a great feat of a general to even persuade his troops to march on to the battle field - consider all the depictions in movies where armies would face each other, negotiate, and withdraw. These are based on real accounts and it reflects the fact that when you march on an army, you are literally staring death in the face. Troops don't take this lightly, in fact it is terrifying. Now, if you are staring at an army with your shield and dagger pointed directly at them, you're likely to feel A LOT more secure than the event in which a pile of troops are storming you and your comrades while you're engaged elsewhere, or even simply facing a direction in which you cannot defend yourself.

I do not think vanilla nor any mod aside from total realism captures the sense of dread that soldiers on the battle field experience. Again, I think that cavalry are too agile for this mod given that they are capable of getting those high morale shocks on multiple units in a rather short time frame. In fact I have demolished AI armies over and over due to my cavalry maneuvers, I really hope they get this aspect of the mod fixed up..

Yes, it WAS terrifying... but it wasn't this bad. Battles in real life lasted hours. Units could hold a line. If a side was losing, they wouldn't immediately break - this was instrumental to many ancient battles, such as cannae where the Carthaginian infantry was able to make many repeated controlled retreats.

The main important thing is that a commander could react to a situation, and that's even considering the amount of time it takes for a messenger to take orders from the general to a group of men. I feel like currently in R2TR, you can't react. Battles are even shorter than vanilla right now.

Actually, we are waiting for patch14 to see if CA fixes some bugs that are still in game which cause some issues with how flanking morale penalties are given (you can get flanking penalty even if attacked from front). Once we know what will be fixed we can start adjusting the morale settings based on that. Personally i don't want to rework entire concept with every CA patch, therefore we are in waiting mode right now. Anyway, I'm grateful for any feedback, because it allows us to improve our work further. Nothing is written in stone, a lot of things will change over time.

Great! Did you create a bug report so that CA would at least know it's a problem? They'd probably have issues seeing it considering that in vanilla being flanked is more of a minor annoyance than a game-winning manuevre

[Cidalsleepwalker]

Actually, we are waiting for patch14 to see if CA fixes some bugs that are still in game which cause some issues with how flanking morale penalties are given (you can get flanking penalty even if attacked from front). Once we know what will be fixed we can start adjusting the morale settings based on that. Personally i don't want to rework entire concept with every CA patch, therefore we are in waiting mode right now. Anyway, I'm grateful for any feedback, because it allows us to improve our work further. Nothing is written in stone, a lot of things will change over time.

Awesome, thanks for the response. I have never made it as far in a campaign as I have with your mod and I may actually finish one this time. I'll definitely be leaving some more feedback in a little bit. One thing I can definitely say now is that I absolutely love what you have done with the naval battles! I think they could be slowed just a bit and the range of some of the units adjusted, but I have never actively sought to fight naval battles before this. I definitely want to see more of them in this mod; it is especially satisfying to catch transport fleets alone on the water!

[La Tene]

Yes, it WAS terrifying... but it wasn't this bad. Battles in real life lasted hours. Units could hold a line. If a side was losing, they wouldn't immediately break - this was instrumental to many ancient battles, such as cannae where the Carthaginian infantry was able to make many repeated controlled retreats.

The main important thing is that a commander could react to a situation, and that's even considering the amount of time it takes for a messenger to take orders from the general to a group of men. I feel like currently in R2TR, you can't react. Battles are even shorter than vanilla right now.

Ah ya. The problem with trying to recreate war in a video game is that in the real world every battle is unique. I'm sure there is every example you could think of (long battles, short battles, awkward battles, straight melee battles.. all kinds..)

I agree that the battles could use some tweaks that would prolong the encounters, but I don't think morale effects is where this mod is going wrong. Think of a fist fight - I've got my fists facing forward dealing blows and protecting my face and I feel confident but only until the moment I slip and find my opponent viciously pursuing me from the side - I'm instantly defenseless and the only plausible move becomes escape. Rome 2 Total Realism is the only mod that portrays this very real and dramatic shift in the psyche to the extent it happens in the real world, and I think this approach should be commended.

I think kill rates could come down quite a bit, cavalry agility could be tempered, and some overall tempering of all infantry move rates - and this would prolong combat and should create some more space for tactics and maneuvering.

[Cidalsleepwalker]

Ah ya. The problem with trying to recreate war in a video game is that in the real world every battle is unique. I'm sure there is every example you could think of (long battles, short battles, awkward battles, straight melee battles.. all kinds..)

I agree that the battles could use some tweaks that would prolong the encounters, but I don't think morale effects is where this mod is going wrong. Think of a fist fight - I've got my fists facing forward dealing blows and protecting my face and I feel confident but only until the moment I slip and find my opponent viciously pursuing me from the side - I'm instantly defenseless and the only plausible move becomes escape. Rome 2 Total Realism is the only mod that portrays this very real and dramatic shift in the psyche to the extent it happens in the real world, and I think this approach should be commended.

I think kill rates could come down quite a bit, cavalry agility could be tempered, and some overall tempering of all infantry move rates - and this would prolong combat and should create some more space for tactics and maneuvering.

I'm sorry, but formation fighting isn't at all like fist fighting. You have several other men watching your flanks, someone leading the formation and calling commands; if you are a well-trained and disciplined unit you're not going to insta-route just because someone hit you from the side. I can see that happening if you get attacked from the rear, but unless they execute a pincer movement or your unit is fatigued I don't see a flank attack doing what it is doing right now.

[Biggus Splenus]

I'm sorry, but formation fighting isn't at all like fist fighting. You have several other men watching your flanks, someone leading the formation and calling commands; if you are a well-trained and disciplined unit you're not going to insta-route just because someone hit you from the side. I can see that happening if you get attacked from the rear, but unless they execute a pincer movement or your unit is fatigued I don't see a flank attack doing what it is doing right now.

I think his comparison to fist fighting is valid. He was comparing the individuals in the fist-fight to entire bodies of troops in the battlefield; a unit (I guess that's what he meant). And flank attacks have broken entire armies before, first that comes to my mid is at Allia.

[Cidalsleepwalker]

I think his comparison to fist fighting is valid. He was comparing the individuals in the fist-fight to entire bodies of troops in the battlefield; a unit (I guess that's what he meant). And flank attacks have broken entire armies before, first that comes to my mid is at Allia.

I don't know much about Allia, but it seems to me that a lot of the Romans were poorly armed/trained as well as outnumbered so that makes sense. However, having trained to fight individually as well as in a formation I disagree that the comparison is valid as the two are almost nothing alike.

The only way a flank attack should cause a route like what I'm seeing in battles is on poorly trained/inexperienced units or if the flank attack causes a lot of casualties. Simply getting hit in the side (or just having a unit near your flank) shouldn't cause a route, but it does.

[Biggus Splenus]

The Romans out numbered the Gauls at Allia 2-1, and why would you believe the Romans were poorly equipped and trained? The core of their infantry was the heavy hoplite.

Some armies trained to fight solely as a unit, some solely as individuals, and some both. It's difficult to make battle mechanics when there are nearly endless factors to take into consideration.

[Cidalsleepwalker]

The Romans out numbered the Gauls at Allia 2-1, and why would you believe the Romans were poorly equipped and trained? The core of their infantry was the heavy hoplite.

Some armies trained to fight solely as a unit, some solely as individuals, and some both. It's difficult to make battle mechanics when there are nearly endless factors to take into consideration.

Every source I can find online about the battle says the Romans were outnumbered (40,000 Romans against 70,000 Gauls seems to be the consensus) and poorly trained and equipped (on the flanks at least). I can find none that speak to the contrary. Their core may have been hoplites, but their poorly trained/equipped flanks weren't. The gauls routed the weaker flanks and then surrounded the center. At least that's all I can find online at the moment.

[La Tene]

I think this is interesting and constructive. It seems that training and experience would play a very large role in this, but morale would factor in probably proportionately - think brave heart But really, very many battles in history have been fought by troops who possessed nearly zero spiritual attachment to the outcomes of victory. Life has a way of capturing the young man and hurling him in to an unexpected and scary world - the levy troop is not fighting for the destiny of rome or the glory of sparta, even, but it is usually a practical move on the part of the conscript in joining the army. It seems practical at least, and then one finds himself in a foreign land and starts to question his wisdom and to criticize his command. Whole armies are made of such men, and thus whole battalions become skid-dish and potential deserters.

These huge masses of men of the ancient battlefield would have been extremely unpredictable, but one thing that was predicted endlessly was the fleeing troop! R2TR is capturing this, no other mod is.

Frankly, I fail to see how your training would 1. portray military melee combat as being entirely different from 1 on 1 combat 2. give you a sense of what the battlefield of classical antiquity would be like. I don't mean to be snide, but I'm assuming you're american or european and if that's the case, any military training or experience you might have is one of an extremely privileged nature. It's nothing like being a roman in a foreign land - they didn't have the humvee, the abram, the automatic rifle.

Again sorry if any of this comes across snide, but I feel the need to stick up for these morale effects. (try some CAC battles, notice the absolute carnage all over the battle map and ask yourself if men were likely to allow this to happen to themselves) CAC has a very nice roster though

[Causeless]

The thing is, not only is it arguably not realistic - I mean, we can argue all we want that morale is portrayed accurately, but just looking at numbers shows that battles didn't last 5 minutes that they do in R2TR right now and that commanders actually had a chance to react to a morale drop and reinforce - but other than that, it's simply not fun. It's impossible to reinforce, and large-scale manoeuvres are meaningless because your individual units break and cannot hold a line for any real time at all.

[AngryTitusPullo]

We will see how patch 14 works like before taking the next course of action.

[Destin Faroda]

The thing is, not only is it arguably not realistic - I mean, we can argue all we want that morale is portrayed accurately, but just looking at numbers shows that battles didn't last 5 minutes that they do in R2TR right now and that commanders actually had a chance to react to a morale drop and reinforce - but other than that, it's simply not fun. It's impossible to reinforce, and large-scale manoeuvres are meaningless because your individual units break and cannot hold a line for any real time at all.

Sounds like the melee defense values are too low. That can be easily fixed.