7 Things You Should Remember About Labour (UK)

[Denny Crane!]

7 Things You Should Know About Labour:

We see a lot barracking about a certain other political party, whether it is racism, corruption or political scandals. It seems like we forget so easily about the 12 years of Labour leadership which was a non stop gravy train of nepotism, spin, sleaze, corruption and dangerous authoritarianism. It isn't quite the simple bullet points the posters give you but skim it and try it for size:

1. Ken Livingstone has been the front runner of one of the most prominent positions in British Political life under Labour since 1981 and succeeded a number of times most recently as the Mayor of London, more representative of a bigger chunk of the UK politician than any MP and more visible. He is also openly a communist (Socialist Action - Neo Trotskyist), an ideology that has killed more people than the Nazis since World War 2 including the wholesale slaughter of a third of the Cambodian population. He has supported the bloody regime that holds sway in Venezuela, which people are now having to flee for their lives as they are hunted down by pro government militias for oppositional support (including a friend of mine). He has supported Terrorism and murder through Sinn Fein and met with the more violent PIRA and supported the Argentinian Military Juntas war for control of the Falklands, a place they have no territorial or historical claim on. Think Racism only exists in certain fringe parties? No in Ken we have an out and out antisemite who repeatedly conflates the notion of Race, Religion and Zionism and accuses them as a group of only being interested in money (gee where have we heard that kind of propaganda before?) and his alignment with extremist views of Islam like his association with the Muslim Brotherhood leaves us in no doubt that he his happy to support bigotry and discrimination if only it is against the dirty jews...

2. Under Labour we had the first ever PM questioned by the Police. It should have been for war crimes but almost as serious was the corruption of the House of Lords. Late 2005 we heard 4 Labour nominations for the House of Lords had been blocked, all 4 were wealthy businessmen who had given the party millions in loans that were not even declared on the party books thanks to a loophole. The charges were never brought by the CPS due to a year long series of leaks to the media creating a prejudicial view making a fair assessment impossible - that and Labour are good at covering their tracks and exploiting the loopholes.

Just one of the many, don't forget about cash for access, F1 sponsorship of Labour allowing them to continue advertising cigarettes, Tessa Jowell and her husbands finances, cash for influence 2009, cash for influence 2010 and of course the MP expenses scandals.

3. Started the Iraq war based on what we now know were blatant lies. Half a million dead and yes a dictator displaced but for what? For more instability and the hope of a better future. How is it that someone who lied on the grandest scale to commit troops to a war with that many dead has not resulted in a war crimes trial is baffling.

4. Party of the people? Introduced the 10p tax rate, allowed a 112% increase in council tax and regressive taxes on petrol and diesel year after year. Created a benefits trap that allowed an effective 100% marginal rate of tax on the poorest. Introduced Working Tax Credit which subsidises business and removes the onus to increase basic wage levels further increasing benefit dependency and increasing our inequality problem.

5. Allowed the rollback of historic common law rights such as Habeus Corpus and Magna Carta (things like presumption of innonence if those terms seem foreign to you) in our incorporation of the EUs justice directives and harmonisation of our extradition proceedings.

6. In a similar vein lets look back at their erosion of our liberties and expose their scary authoritarianism. 60 new powers in more than 25 Acts of Parliament whittled away at freedoms and broken pledges set out in the Human Rights Act and Magna Carta. Police powers to detain suspects for 28 days, stop and search powers, restrictions on the rights to protest, legal interception of correspondence without warrant and to store and share our private data. The Coroners and Justice Bill that would allow the state the power to prevent embarrassing revelations of Government failure, suspend inquests into wrongful deaths or force them into secret. There are to many to mention in this small insight into the scary unscrupulous minds of Labour politicians .

7. Harriet Harman, the hate stirring misandrist who regularly lies or distorts in a Machiavellian power grab is not some back bench loony but former deputy leader and now Shadow secretary of State for Culture, media and Sport. If we ignore the small faux pas of allowing an organisation for the legalisation of sex with children to stay on the books of one of her organisations even after it was revealed...no really, we'll look at her policies. And the policies are informed by her jejune vacuous radicalised feminism. She wants a mandatory male female partnership in Labour because men are not very good at running things. All women shortlists for top positions business (who cares about black men right?). That men who murder their wives should face full life term sentences while women are allowed to plead provocation. That there is no need for children to know their fathers, and good lord I can't go on because it is simply to depressing that someone this insane has a huge influence on legislation in this country.

Labour are nepotistic corrupt, authoritarian, happily let people who regularly promote hatred and support bloody dictatorships right to the top of the party and if all of that was not enough they have proven to be financially ruinous in blatant and more hidden ways which I could go into if anyone is interested like their explosion of PFI, selling off gold and raiding pensions to keep their capital investment off the debt burden. That they will make grandiose promises of spending and to fulfil them will find that money no matter how ruinous it is for the future. But of course they can always blame the next government forced to begin cleaning it up.

(this was written as a deliberate provocation to all the anti UKIP message my Facebook feed was getting bombed with half of which was not true, what is good for the Goose).

[Pielstick]

Good post mate.

Unfortunately, as you probably know better than I - there are large swathes of the north of the country that will happily vote for a dustbin if it had a Labour rosette on it.

The 13 years of Labour under Blair and Brown were very bad for this country.

[Astaroth]

Do I think Labour are a great party? No. Am I a fan of the Conservatives? Certainly not.

Of course Labour might very well have ties to 'corporatism'. Of course Tony Blair was far from a great leader, let alone Brown et al.

I am not sure I would cast a vote for Labour.

However, what I do know is that I would never, ever vote for an openly racist party led by someone who pretends to fight for the working class when in reality, he himself is the incarnation of corporatism. Nigel Farage is little more than a right-wing populist who plays with the xenophobic fears of the average pub-goer.

What almost pisses me off the most is the constant faux-denial of racism and xenophobia -- "of course we are not racist, we have nothing against foreigners, we don't want to discriminate against anyone" etc. All of that is complete and utter BS and Farage and his ilk know it. You only need to read the online postings of their supporters to know that this is exactly what UKIP is doing. Many of their supporters want them to be that way.

It is exactly the same as with all of the other Europe-"sceptic" parties in Europe. AFD/Germany, Jobbik/Hungary, FN/France, Geert Wilders (he really is his party)NL etc. All of them keep emphasising that they are "of course" not right-wing, "of course" not racist. What complete nonsense.

If they are going to be racist and xenophobic, that is their right as long as they stay within the law. Freedom of speech and all that. But constantly denying it while openly pandering to their largely xenophobic voters is simply sad.

To put it in Farage's own words when he was asked if he thinks there would be a difference between Romanians or Germans moving into his neighbourhood:

I think you know the difference. We want an immigration policy that is not just based on controlling not just quantity but quality.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-interview-lbc


And by the way, that image you opened the thread with is silly at best. Comparing Labour to the Nazis? Really?

As far as the other points in the OP are concerned, just a few minor notes on the more legal aspects:

Habeas corpus is largely useless nowadays. It is a right allowing you to be released quickly if you arrested w/o good reason etc. But right now there are already clear statutory limits on how long the police can detain you anyway (see Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, s. 34 and following).

As far as the Human Rights Act is concerned, that was actually passed by the Labour government and significantly improved human rights protection in the UK, see A v Home Secretary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_and_O...ome_Department) for example. Of course the anti-terrorism legislation under Labour is very problematic (see in particular "control orders", although now repealed), but on the whole the domestic human rights agenda under Blair isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. The HRA 1998 was a big deal and I also consider the reform of the HoL a step into the right direction.

[athanaric]

Interesting OP, especially the parts about bigots like Livingstone and that Harman person (she wouldn't be related to Fritz Haarmann?).

Nigel Farage is little more than a right-wing populist who plays with the xenophobic fears of the average pub-goer.

Hurrr derp Rechtspopulist Nazi dumpf Stammtisch.
I think that seeing as you guys are unwilling to have a discussion about facts, you should at least expand your vocabulary and rhetorical reference pool, as it's getting a bit repetitive over the years.

It is exactly the same as with all of the other Europe-"sceptic" parties in Europe. AFD/Germany, Jobbik/Hungary, FN/France, Geert Wilders (he really is his party)NL etc. All of them keep emphasising that they are "of course" not right-wing, "of course" not racist. What complete nonsense.

The very fact that you are lumping together all of these parties shows how little you know about some or maybe even all of them.

[justicar5]

Interesting OP, especially the parts about bigots like Livingstone and that Harman person (she wouldn't be related to Fritz Haarmann?).



Hurrr derp Rechtspopulist Nazi dumpf Stammtisch.
I think that seeing as you guys are unwilling to have a discussion about facts, you should at least expand your vocabulary and rhetorical reference pool, as it's getting a bit repetitive over the years.



.

When his party makes claims that aren't complete lies, hypocrisy and race baiting it may be worth it, but on their current record, trusting them on where the sun rises or what colour the sky is, is dodgy.

[Denny Crane!]

When his party makes claims that aren't complete lies, hypocrisy and race baiting it may be worth it, but on their current record, trusting them on where the sun rises or what colour the sky is, is dodgy.

It makes about much sense as trusting Labour right!?

[justicar5]

It makes about much sense as trusting Labour right!?

I don't. I just flat out hate them less than the other option.

[Pielstick]

The very fact that UKIP are rocking the political boat should be a massive wake up call to the big parties.

However, their reaction of running around orchestrating smear campaigns and screaming "RACISTS!" leaves me with little faith that the likes of the Tories and Labour are actually sitting up and taking notice of exactly why UKIP are growing in popularity.

[Gatsby]

Economic troubles provoking un-realistically negative perception of current society, widespread perception of a distant boogeyman (EU), vacuous showmanship concentrated in one charismatic charlatan. Pretty much the ABCs of crap little populist parties over-achieving. That's why the UKIP are growing.

And was Farage floundering in a quagmire of hypocrisy and ideological contradiction so deep that his spin doctor had to physically pull him out of an interview part of the establishment's "smear campaign"? UKIP is a party headed by the upper class fighting for the interests of the upper class, using the latent xenophobia of the masses as their foot in the door. They are not change, they are not rocking the boat, they're the same kind of manipulative sods from the same class as the leaders of the big parties doing the same crap to win votes. UKIP are so establishment it hurts.

Anyway, on topic:

A slightly sensationalised opening but good OP. Labour are no longer any more deserving of their name than any party, there is no party anymore fighting for the interests of the working class, mostly because it structurally has ceased to exist as a major force in our society. Labour are pretty much as elitist as the Tories, the only difference is they are economically less competent but slightly less abundant in dodgy back-benchers.

[Pielstick]

The smear campaign is the tried and tested method of screaming "RACIST!" at anyone who doesn't approve of the level of immigration the UK has seen in recent years.

What's funny is even the Daily Mail are running daily smear stories against UKIP and Farage.

The simple fact is UKIP have siezed on the immigration issue in a way that the major parties have utterly failed to do. This has resulted in them becoming a growing force in British politics. If the major parties actually addressed the immigration issue that so many people in this country are concerned about then UKIP wouldn't be seeing the rise in support they have. That's democracy in action... unless you subscribe to the notion that everybody should just STFU and do and think what their betters tell them.

[mongrel]

That's democracy in action... unless you subscribe to the notion that everybody should just STFU and do and think what their betters tell them.

No it's hypocrisy in action. Anyone who objects to Poles speaking their own language on a train, whilst on their way home to their German-speaking wife and kids doesn't deserve respect.


This car-crash of an interview today speaks volumes.



Would murdering 1% of gay people wipe out gayness in the UK? It didn't work in Germany. Why would an elected official want to kill gay people ( outside of Iran or similar)? Funny hoe UKIPers are prone to Eurabia nonsense but boast of wanting to impose their own version of Saudi law.

[Astaroth]

It's not a smear campaign to call a spade a spade.

As you yourself admit, UKIP is clearly embracing and furthering a xenophobic, racist agenda. Why is that so hard to admit and stand by openly?

What they say, do and promote is racist, plain and simple. Of course you are still free to support them or to believe that they are a valid choice despite their racist agenda or heck even because of that.

When a party is hunting for voters by playing with the xenophobic fears of people then they cannot complain about the "label" of racism. It's a label they themselves chose in the pursuit of voters.

What worries me much more is how many people still seem to hold racist and discriminatory views in the 21st century. Makes me glad that my own country actually has a written Constitution in a single document and a smart constitutional court that prevents populists and crazy people from enforcing their xenophobia on everyone else. I'm also very happy not to live in Switzerland, "direct democracy" and all.

[Gatsby]

The question of "would you be happy to have a Romanian family move next door?" came up, Farage naturally said no. The interviewer asked whats the difference between a German and Romanian family (Farage's wife is a German immigrant using the open borders of the EU) and Farage responds "you know what the difference is".

And its not a smear campaign when they just make themselves look like tossers. "When ignorant folks wanna advertise their ignorance, you don't really have to do anything. Just let them talk."

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I think we can all agree that UKIP getting anywhere near actual government would be a complete disaster. We've discussed previously their suicidal policies on the economy and social rights. Which are all geared towards merely popularism. That's fine. But it means their totally unequipped for actual governance in a way that would allow them to deliver on their promises without shafting the rest of us big time.

The trouble here is, and +Rep to denny for what's a very interesting summary of the New Labour, is that ALL major parties Labour, Conservative, Lib-dems, UKIP are pretty much steeped in some kind of corruption/bad governance practice/ the same sleazy messages (Yes UKIP included). We in the UK suffer from not actually having a party that really stands out. The closest i can think of are Scottish Greens (not to be confused with the Green party) and their not even Westminster...

So indeed while we remember Labours fault, what other real choice do we have? UKIP is a massive no for anyone not wanting to experience another full blown recession and the curtailing of their rights as an employee. The Conservatives seem quite wet and reactionary, panickly bowing to whicever way the wind is blowing (Cameron and his promise of EU referendum, calling the country a 'Christian country' right after pissing off the UK's christian body be his equal marital rights schemes (quite right in my view and years too late)), and the Liberals who effectively blew themselves up with their grab for any sort of power.

For my part, i actually (for once!) don't even have a convoluted answer to this. What we ideally need is a party to walk the floor, to splinter... ideally all of them. To create a real dynamic in British politics, that now is actually lacking. But i can't see any of them doing that due to the fact it would 'lose votes' in the larger context.

[Gatsby]

I think basically the choice the British voter faces today is if they are willing to shake hands with the devil for a semblance of economic soundness, which the Tories have about managed to give us, and I'm not sure Labour can.

The Lib-Dems for a fleeting moment -even after their slight under-performance compared to predictions in the general election - seemed poised to revolutionise British politics; they were going to champion middle Britain, usher in a new period of Commons pluralism and crack the Lab-Con duality thats existed since 1945. Then Clegg took a big steaming dump on it all and whored the party away for a token shred of power.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Either way all mainstream parties such as the Conservatives, Lib Dems and Labour are all corrupt. I wouldn't cast a single vote for any of them. Bunch of promises and then breaks them during five years of government. Heck I wouldn't imagine that they weren't all just ' enemies' because at the end of the day, they are all friends. You can put this faffe and charade on but it makes no difference. UKIP, BNP are no different either. I think the parties have already woken up-to the fact that UKIP is detracting their voters, and the BNP is ref-surfacing , but only by a little, a shame to see people supporting that damn party. One comment on the telegraph said that because UKIP had Asian members, he'd go for BNP.
Really says something about how these parties have used xenophiba to its full extent isn't it?


And of course, UKIP has no real governmental policy! They have nothing but stop immigration, stop immigration fused in their bloods. Same thing with Arvind Kejeriwal, anti corruption crusader in India winning the Delhi Lok Sabha elections and kicked the ruling congress party out. The guy didn't bring any real government policies for the people of delhi and after 49 days resigned which lead to the remark ' AK49'.

In the same way, Farrage and his government would not seriously have any real policies except reviving industry, giving more jobs to British people and looking forward to leaving the EU and having to deal with the mess it will cause. In all simpleness, their government will look like something that is branded well, but its rotten and core in the inside.

My vote either goes for Greens, or the Monster Raving Lunatic Party. I can't see anyone else being a real force in this country anymore. Too many scandals and abuse of young students is too much for me.

If a real man, ( Like Narenda Modi who came from scratch with no political foundation at all) came, perhaps. If someone like Tony Benn, also awesome.

But yes, UKIP is rising way too fast now thanks to the media attention- funny thing is they don't have a MP in the Commons yet they get way more coverage than the Greens! I wouldn't trust any one of them. All sick and corrupted ******** that claim to represent the people when in fact they do not.

And Immigration is not the problem here, British people are unwilling to work and yet these Eastern European Immigrants are hardworking people. And yet millions of British expats go to Asia, Europe, and Africa to live in. Well if you want the borders closed, kick those expats too from other countries as well! Its only fair that if you stop immigration, then all these expats should emigrate back. Farage was claiming 29 million bulgurians/Romaians would be coming.

Government statistics: 28,000 Romanians/Bulgarians.

So much for Mr Farage and Mr Griffin.

Note: This is just my opinion.

[Pielstick]

Interesting, but not surprising in the least to see people still can't get their head around the concept that opposing high levels of immigration isn't racist.

[mongrel]

Interesting, but not surprising in the least to see people still can't get their head around the concept that opposing high levels of immigration isn't racist.

If a UKIP politician calls for a black person from Dudley, to be expelled to a "black country" (not The Black Country where he was actually born), just for expressing an opinion, he is a racist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27202753

[Denny Crane!]

Do I think Labour are a great party? No. Am I a fan of the Conservatives? Certainly not.

Of course Labour might very well have ties to 'corporatism'. Of course Tony Blair was far from a great leader, let alone Brown et al.

I am not sure I would cast a vote for Labour.

However, what I do know is that I would never, ever vote for an openly racist party led by someone who pretends to fight for the working class when in reality, he himself is the incarnation of corporatism. Nigel Farage is little more than a right-wing populist who plays with the xenophobic fears of the average pub-goer.

What almost pisses me off the most is the constant faux-denial of racism and xenophobia -- "of course we are not racist, we have nothing against foreigners, we don't want to discriminate against anyone" etc. All of that is complete and utter BS and Farage and his ilk know it. You only need to read the online postings of their supporters to know that this is exactly what UKIP is doing. Many of their supporters want them to be that way.

They have Arab, Pakistani and Indian candidates.

It is exactly the same as with all of the other Europe-"sceptic" parties in Europe. AFD/Germany, Jobbik/Hungary, FN/France, Geert Wilders (he really is his party)NL etc. All of them keep emphasising that they are "of course" not right-wing, "of course" not racist. What complete nonsense.

If they are going to be racist and xenophobic, that is their right as long as they stay within the law. Freedom of speech and all that. But constantly denying it while openly pandering to their largely xenophobic voters is simply sad.

To put it in Farage's own words when he was asked if he thinks there would be a difference between Romanians or Germans moving into his neighbourhood:



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-interview-lbc


And by the way, that image you opened the thread with is silly at best. Comparing Labour to the Nazis? Really?

Yes in terms of fascistic control if not racism, in terms of attacks on civil liberties. If Mussolini had as recognisable a symbol I would have preferred that.

As far as the other points in the OP are concerned, just a few minor notes on the more legal aspects:

Habeas corpus is largely useless nowadays. It is a right allowing you to be released quickly if you arrested w/o good reason etc. But right now there are already clear statutory limits on how long the police can detain you anyway (see Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, s. 34 and following).

Something Labour attempted to take away thank you, 28 days detention.

As far as the Human Rights Act is concerned, that was actually passed by the Labour government and significantly improved human rights protection in the UK, see A v Home Secretary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_and_O...ome_Department) for example. Of course the anti-terrorism legislation under Labour is very problematic (see in particular "control orders", although now repealed), but on the whole the domestic human rights agenda under Blair isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. The HRA 1998 was a big deal and I also consider the reform of the HoL a step into the right direction.

Introduced then all over it. Thank you, my point, quite.

Interesting, but not surprising in the least to see people still can't get their head around the concept that opposing high levels of immigration isn't racist.

Yup. Although it isn't even about levels this year, it is about the ability to control year by year.

If a UKIP politician calls for a black person from Dudley, to be expelled to a "black country" (not The Black Country where he was actually born), just for expressing an opinion, he is a racist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27202753

It should be noted though that while they attract the loons without doubt, when they reveal it they quit or are fired.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The trouble is though the high basis of UKIP's high-level of immigration is a complete lie:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...r-9367046.html

Numbers of Romanians and Bulgarians working in Britain have fallen by 4,000 in the first three months since visa restrictions were scrapped, official figures revealed today.
The statistics contradict claims by the UK Independence Party (Ukip) that Britain would be hit by an influx of workers from the two east European states once the transitional controls were lifted on January 1.

And indeed those migrants we do have, actually contribute far, far more than they take out. So literally what is the problem? It's what's helping keeping the UK economy growing at such a great pace ('great' being better than everyone else in this mess).

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...seless-experts

Migrants coming to the UK since the year 2000 have been less likely to receive benefits or use social housing than people already living in the country, according to a study that argues the new arrivals have made a net contribution of £25bn to public finances.People from European Economic Area countries have been the most likely to make a positive contribution, paying about 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits over the 10 years from 2001 to 2011, according to the findings from University College London's migration research unit. Other immigrants paid about 2% more than they received.
Recent immigrants were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than people native to the UK and 3% less likely to live in social housing, says the report written by Professor Christian Dustmann and Dr Tommaso Frattini.

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

And a very interesting independent analysis of the UK's immigration statistics and economic contribution:

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk...immigration-uk

So why the heck do we want to change things here? It's really a problem (no massive influxes) and indeed the EU workers who are here contribute waaaay more than they take out, and arguably are contributing more than some actual citizens.

So if the major UKIP talking point is false, what is their left for them considering the policies are next to nothing?

@Marshall of France- a fair analysis i think mate, The liberals could have made such a difference. But totally messed up there.