Babarian swordmen destroy pikemen at the front

[Orcinus.Orca]

At first, you should know that I'm not good at English. I hope your understand about my poor English.
And also, I use this kinds of forum for the first time.

I have great interest in Divide et Impera mod, and also in Diadokhoi kingdoms.
So I want to reenact their pikemen tactics, but there is some problem.

Everyone of you may know that pikemen has poor mobility and utility.
But Hellenic generals accepted that risks because pikemen are very good at blocking advance of enemy melee infantry at the front without big loss.
I had expected that feature of pikemen is same in DEI, but I set up some match using custom battles and finally found out that some Babarian swordmen units can destroy pikemen in same tier just by frontal attack.

They have some common feature. That units has no formation attack skill neither other special formation.
Is this intended? or just mistakes or somethings?

And I don't know non-babaric swordmen or some of spearmen also can do that if they turn off their formation skills, but I'll try to match them.


One of my examples follow
(I don't know why this screenshots are so small...)




Pezhetairoi(Macedon Elite pikemen) vs Birkantinoi(Arevaci Elite swords)


Two unit engaged, without flank exposed.
After a while, some of swordmen pass through pikewall, and started attacking pikemen



pikemen killed ten of enemy, and enemy swordmen killed 32 of pikemen.




When swordmen left half, pikemen unit was almost destroied.



At last, pikemen broken.

[Orcinus.Orca]

I just test more match between pikemen and others.
At this time, I wann't the side of pikemen. I controled enemy of them.
And I used very narrow formation because I want my units not surround pikemen.

non-babaric swordmen turned off formation attack and they just slaughtered pikemen.....
And also, spearmen defeated pikemen also....

So, in my opinion, if other units turn off formation attack, they could defeat pikemen had same tier at the front.

I respect modders directing points, but I just want to know that this is intended or not...

[Butan]

Seems like some units can force through a pikewall even frontally.

I dont think its necessarily a bad thing. Especially when you choose elite swordmen with javelin, very good melee defense, and 300 men. Pikes are good to keep enemies at bay and deal some damage to them, but against this kind of unit they will have problems, its true.

The fact that they inflicted 50% casualty to the swordmen is still a proof that those pikes are already quite deadly, when you take into account their attack skill/weapon damage compared to those of the arveci swordmen.
Maybe there is some tinkering to be done here, but ultimately I think its good that even the pikes can be fought on the front by some rock-paper-scissor units.

[luck_ponte]

Seems like some units can force through a pikewall even frontally.

I dont think its necessarily a bad thing. Especially when you choose elite swordmen with javelin, very good melee defense, and 300 men. Pikes are good to keep enemies at bay and deal some damage to them, but against this kind of unit they will have problems, its true.

The fact that they inflicted 50% casualty to the swordmen is still a proof that those pikes are already quite deadly, when you take into account their attack skill/weapon damage compared to those of the arveci swordmen.
Maybe there is some tinkering to be done here, but ultimately I think its good that even the pikes can be fought on the front by some rock-paper-scissor units.

As much as I see your point here, I can't help but disagree. I may be wrong, but I just can't see how you could run into a wall of 6m sarissas manned by disciplined phalangites =p Against levy pikes, this could be possible, but against a more elite unit it just doesn't seem fit imho. Although it is what you say, there is some more tinkering to be done, so I guess it's just a matter of waiting.

[Terror of Phobos]

and this brings me to this...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...for-pike-units

[Butan]

As much as I see your point here, I can't help but disagree. I may be wrong, but I just can't see how you could run into a wall of 6m sarissas manned by disciplined phalangites =p Against levy pikes, this could be possible, but against a more elite unit it just doesn't seem fit imho. Although it is what you say, there is some more tinkering to be done, so I guess it's just a matter of waiting.

I agree with you but my point also stand!
When you take into account both real-life and gameplay elements, the pikes are "balanced": they are very powerful at the front but since I read that thread, I now believe they are not completely infallible even there.


The pikes are very very strong , almost invincible (without talking about flank/rear attacks and ranged) but still, some units will win frontally 1v1: and I think its a good thing.
The pikes atm are completely IMBA against the AI, and against the smart human who knows a pike phalanx is a death trap, they just avoid it entirely as long as they can.
If units with strong enough stats can survive being poked to death by sarissa and inflict more damage than them over time, it actually mean that you can not just click and forget when you use sarissas "well" (=managed to get them to poke in a line, in front of them).

I suggested a modification of pike behaviour in the past (pike phalanx frontage limited like the hoplite phalanx), I believe they are too strong atm and it makes them unbelievably easy to use against the AI, and against the human they just act as repellant since noone worth his salt will try to use any units against them frontally, except with other pike units or expendable units to pin them, or very strong melee units like this thread showed.



Since this mod is still under construction, we cant even say if its intended or not so its hard to say if we arent getting angry for nothing

[Barune]

Also Note that the AI does not turn off Formation Attack, and nor should you. Its not intended to be turned off.

[Timhawk]

What difficulty were you playing on ?

[Post Hoc]

I've seen elite pikeman loose to low tier barbarians in a frontal engagement.

[Matmannen]

You forgot that the Diadochi combined their pike based warfare with shock cavalry support.

[Tripledot]

Is there a reason pikemen wouldn't fare badly against barbarians? They'll just end up knocking away the pikes with their longswords, like how the Zweihanders did in the Renaissance.

[antred]

It's kind of funny how "OF COURSE you can't defeat a phalanx from the front, duh!" when someone wonders why Roman units fail in frontal combat against hoplites suddenly turns into "OF COURSE phalangites won't last against sword-armed barbarians in a frontal fight" when Celtic infantry is involved.

[JObadiah]

It's kind of funny how "OF COURSE you can't defeat a phalanx from the front, duh!" when someone wonders why Roman units fail in frontal combat against hoplites suddenly turns into "OF COURSE phalangites won't last against sword-armed barbarians in a frontal fight" when Celtic infantry is involved.

To be fair, it's not the same people saying these different things. Edit: Also mind that pikes were nerfed fairly recently.

[JObadiah]

Re: Iberian infantry and formation attack; they didn't turn it off, they don't have it.

[Butan]

It's kind of funny how "OF COURSE you can't defeat a phalanx from the front, duh!" when someone wonders why Roman units fail in frontal combat against hoplites suddenly turns into "OF COURSE phalangites won't last against sword-armed barbarians in a frontal fight" when Celtic infantry is involved.

There is always a reason one could easily profess both without looking bad, as long as you accept there is always exceptions.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Pikes can hold for an insane amount of time in my experience, if you want them to be more powerful get the tighter pike formation mod from steam workshop.