Great Hall changes/reforms

**Professor420** · October 15, 2006, 09:30 PM

As far as my experience goes, "help wanted" areas on many forums can either be a place of great benefit, or great chaos. Every project is always seeking some new recruit; what develops is a very competitive, harsh, and nasty environment, where people with little more than an vague idea of their project are assaulted, where it becomes a chaotic environment for people looking for mods, and it is generally one of the least orderly places on the forum (many help wanted forums put the Mudpit to shame... I am guilty of it myself).

I have been a member of www.gamedev.net for about a year, and it has the most orderly, and active, Help Wanted forums I've seen. In no small part, this is due to the mandatory posting template that subforum has. Game development is slightly different than mod development, however, and this is a much tighter community (the entire TW community, I mean), and we should keep this in mind if we/you decide to organize the Great Hall. Here are a couple suggestions I have:

-We need to flesh out a posting template for all 'help wanted' posts. For reference, here is Gamedev's posting template . My suggestion is our template would go something like this:

Originally Posted by posting template

Project name:

Brief description:
(Here you put a brief (paragraph or two) overview of the project, including how long it has currently been in production for. What is the subject matter/aim? What is the scope of the project (total conversion? minimod? specific piece of art?)

Talent needed:
(List the people you need, their expected tasks and any experience needed)

Team structure:
(The people who are currently in the team, how long they've been there, and most importantly what YOU do)

Website:
(Anything you have, even if it's a wip. Just make sure it is here as a clicky link!)

Contacts:
(Your email address/forum/etc...)

Additional Info:
(Anything else you want to say, snippets of the story/design, screenshots. AT LEAST SOMETHING!)

Feedback:
NONE/ENCOURAGING ONLY/ANY

The goal is first, that it makes the forum more organized, by conforming all help-wanted posts to a template. Second, it makes those 'vague idea' people actually think more in-depth about their project.

-A 'classifieds.' A CoW volunteer can keep a stickied thread up to date with a list of TWC hosted projects and what positions they are looking for.

-"Project of the Week": The CoW (perhaps each member chooses a project on a one-week rotation instead of a vote, for simplicity?) chooses a specific project and stickies their thread in the Great Hall for one week.

-"Starting a project FAQ"- This would be a stickied document addressing common issues people have when starting a project. There are many pitfalls that can be avoided if newbies are pointed in the direction of such a document (as well as words saved by not having to repeat it all over and over). We can also use this to encourage newbies to gather skills themselves before actually beginning a total conversion. I think this can be a very important project to make sure we dont' get the inhibitively large number of mods and TCs that we experienced with RTW.

Obviously, we/you would need to work out the details of each of these suggestions. But I think the Great Hall can become an extremely efficient, organized, and respected hub of activity/service if the right infrastructure is set up. I would urge the CoW to act on this quickly, as the 'M2TW Invasion' (as Bure put it) will soon be upon us.

**Gaius Baltar** · October 15, 2006, 09:38 PM

This sounds alot like the ideas present in the "IVORY TOWER" proposal that was posted some time ago. In short, it envisioned a forum structure for mods, mod candidates, "apprentices", and the like. Im not sure what happened to that proposal, but its worth looking up.

But overall a good idea.

**Publius** · October 15, 2006, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar

This sounds alot like the ideas present in the "IVORY TOWER" proposal that was posted some time ago. In short, it envisioned a forum structure for mods, mod candidates, "apprentices", and the like. Im not sure what happened to that proposal, but its worth looking up.

But overall a good idea.

In General: I like the idea. Ultimately it is up to each team to uphold this system, but I think the benefits of it are clear. In short it is a system that would (should it be implemented) become common practice through shear merit and efficiency.

Classifieds: Again, a good idea. A sticky which lists (and links) to each mod's thread. Descriptions, if included, should be kept to an absolute minimum so as to insure ease of browsing.

Project of the Week: I'm luke warm on this, simply to ensure fairness to each mod. If there are say two mod threads and we sticky thread A, and then by next week when it is thread B's 'rotation' was due something had occured in that time (mod dead, position filled, etc) were both threads given the same amount of PR? This will need revision in my eyes before (if) it is implemented.

As a side note, this would become a staff job unless they wish to allocate local moderator duties to the Council of War members to this forum, which I doubt.

Starting a project FAQ: We more or less have one here. This does not mean it couldn't be further developed however, and the sticky is not a bad idea.

@Gaius: The Ivory Tower was the rough template used to create the current Mod Forum structure. What apprentices and the like have to do with this proposal I'm not sure, but then my memory is (and always has been) a bit rusty.

**Gaius Baltar** · October 15, 2006, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

@Gaius: The Ivory Tower was the rough template used to create the current Mod Forum structure. What apprentices and the like have to do with this proposal I'm not sure, but then my memory is (and always has been) a bit rusty.

I seem to remember as part of that idea, a meeting place, I suppose it was describved as a "bulletin board", where individuals with skills would post their qualifications. My memory is kinda fuzzy as well.

I already have a great candidate who does phenomenal battle videos - simmy.uk

check out his work
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=1#post1263656

Ooopps, you already there!!!!!!!

**Publius** · October 17, 2006, 09:26 AM

What do the other councillors have to say on this?

**vikrant** · October 17, 2006, 09:41 AM

sure its a great idea

**Professor420** · October 26, 2006, 09:49 PM

*winds his leg back*
*gives the CW a kick in the behind*

Comon guys, there are so many great ideas in these forums, are any being implemented? Don't let this idea and others just die!

Originally Posted by Publius

I'm luke warm on this, simply to ensure fairness to each mod. If there are say two mod threads and we sticky thread A, and then by next week when it is thread B's 'rotation' was due something had occured in that time (mod dead, position filled, etc) were both threads given the same amount of PR? This will need revision in my eyes before (if) it is implemented.

Well each Councillor would choose a mod on the day or soon before the week rotation was up... basically how it works, is one of the recent 'help wanted' threads are just sticked for a week. They aren't really chosen far in advance. Its not entirely fair simply because there can be only one choice, but its definately not unfair either, as the councillors can choose the mods and who to give the sticky to... some may choose the large mods, some their own mods, and some smaller but promising mods... ultimately, it can only help a single team in a week... having it can only be a good thing, not having it would just keep things how they are. Personally I think it works out very well, making sure mods that show promise are kept above the fast moving, noob infested waters of the Help Wanted.

Originally Posted by Publius

Starting a project FAQ: We more or less have one here. This does not mean it couldn't be further developed however, and the sticky is not a bad idea.

I have read that thread before, its an excellent one, but this is geared in a different way, not so much 'how to run a team' but 'how to start a mod,' and I'd hope would be helpful but also urge new 'leaders' to join other mods instead.

**Publius** · October 26, 2006, 09:56 PM

Well each Councillor would choose a mod on the day or soon before the week rotation was up... basically how it works, is one of the recent 'help wanted' threads are just sticked for a week. They aren't really chosen far in advance. Its not entirely fair simply because there can be only one choice, but its definately not unfair either, as the councillors can choose the mods and who to give the sticky to... some may choose the large mods, some their own mods, and some smaller but promising mods... ultimately, it can only help a single team in a week... having it can only be a good thing, not having it would just keep things how they are. Personally I think it works out very well, making sure mods that show promise are kept above the fast moving, noob infested waters of the Help Wanted.

I suppose that would work.

I have read that thread before, its an excellent one, but this is geared in a different way, not so much 'how to run a team' but 'how to start a mod,' and I'd hope would be helpful but also urge new 'leaders' to join other mods instead.

As I said I'm sure we could expand on it to make it an even more useful guide. If nothing else it gives us a very good place to start from.

**Gaius Baltar** · October 27, 2006, 10:27 AM

Comon guys, there are so many great ideas in these forums, are any being implemented? Don't let this idea and others just die!

The Great Hall reforms idea has been incorporated into a general Forum/thread/sticky restructuring outline. Last look I had at that proposal was several days ago. I believe one of the details of concern was the mandatory form material, and how to implement that.

**vikrant** · October 27, 2006, 01:33 PM

what proposal
can u provide the link

**Gaius Baltar** · October 27, 2006, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by vikrant1986

what proposal
can u provide the link

I was refering to the mod workshop reform, but I cant seem to find the outline that I ran across a few days ago.

Ill edit in as soon as I find it.

**Halie Satanus** · October 29, 2006, 04:41 PM

Ok, removes big text book from rear of jeans,(phew still works).

I like this idea a lot, getting members who post ideas may be a struggle but i think its worth giving it a go, what's needed here is definite staff or local moderator management or it will break down very quickly, i think any threads that pop up and do not adhere to this format should be given one week to comply or face deletion.

Originally Posted by posting template

*Project name:

*Brief description:
(Here you put a brief (paragraph or two) overview of the project, including how long it has currently been in production for. What is the subject matter/aim? What is the scope of the project (total conversion? minimod? specific piece of art?)

*Talent needed:
(List the people you need, their expected tasks and any experience needed)

Team structure:
(The people who are currently in the team, how long they've been there, and most importantly what YOU do)

Website:
(Anything you have, even if it's a wip. Just make sure it is here as a clicky link!)

Contacts:
(Your email address/forum/etc...)

Additional Info:
(Anything else you want to say, snippets of the story/design, screenshots. AT LEAST SOMETHING!)

Feedback:
NONE/ENCOURAGING ONLY/ANY

Sections marked * are compulsory

If we're looking to make people think before they post "hey anyone think a mod with Dinosaurs would be good" we need to make a couple of fields compulsory, hopefully that would at least cut out the ridiculous.

The sticky idea is cool to, i'm sure we had something like it before in the major mod sub forums, with chosen mods highlighted in a section at the top, though the rotation was pretty slow and i may have totally imagined that, i think two weeks with an interview in the Es or a bit of exposure via the front page would be more likely to get the modders to comply.

Threads like that (dinosaurs) should be moved to the Great hall and the countdown begun.

edit; just to add that Lovejazz did something very similar for the Mtw2 hosted forums applications.

**Professor420** · November 16, 2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by halie satanus

i think any threads that pop up and do not adhere to this format should be given one week to comply or face deletion.

One week is a long time for Help Wanted. In one week, positions are often filled... 2 days has worked fine at Gamedev... Otherwise the posts are continually bumped even though they do not conform to the template. Keep in mind, these are recruitment posts, not general modding posts, so the closing of them wouldn't be damaging, it would just require the post to open up a (properly formatted) new thread.

Sections marked * are compulsory

I think the template as we've designed is fine, but I'd make all fields compulsory. There is simply no reason a project would not be able to complete all of them. The more fields, the better job it will do at exposing the ridiculous.

The sticky idea is cool to, i'm sure we had something like it before in the major mod sub forums

We did.

Anyway, if there is support from Councilors, I suggest that the following changes be implemented:

Help Wanted forum with a required template for Help Wanted posts, as specified in post #1 of this thread. Help Offered posts do not require a template.
Each week, the councilor on rotation (rotation can be decided by amongst councilors) for the week, will choose one of the current Help Wanted threads to sticky for the week. Once it is chosen, a moderator will make the necessary sticky and unsticky at the request of the councilor.
A "classifieds" thread will be opened and be un-replyable, to be maintained by a/the Mod Threads tribunous/Hex , where the first post will list all TWC hosted projects and what positions they require. Changes to the list should be PMed to CoW or TW moderators, and forwarded to one of the Tribs to edit the "classifieds" thread.

These have been mostly discussed and agreed upon... I think all that remains is some final endorsement from the Councilors and some stimulation/pestering of Hex to implement it.

**General Sun** · October 29, 2006, 06:37 PM

It seems as if it is up to me to take the other point point of view on this issue.

I agree with the premise of greater organization, but from a webmastering point of view, classified ads should not have a separate forum. We already have a place where mods can look for support, that is the Mod Threads forum. Splitting off our various mod forums decreases the overall activity of each forum, decreasing the liveness of each forum. While this is not terrible in itself, it does divert player attention. If they can look in the mod threads forum and find out about each mod, why would they go trek to a different forum just to read about job offers? These two topics are inherently linked. A person only has so much time, the average web user stays for less than 10 minutes on a website.

My suggestion: Kill the Great Halls forum, give each mod a thread in the Mod Threads forum. Allow double posting in that forum so modmakers can bump up their threads as needed.

Here's the other issue.

As much as I love standardization I believe it can also be harmful to the overall process of growing this community. It is more important to make all mod makers feel welcomed than to make sure that they are all uberprogamedevs. Some mod ideas are ridiculous, and often are presented in ludicrously retarded methods, ala, I think a mod with dinosaurs are really cool!!!! FTW~!

But you know what? That is how people learn. Such a proposition can provide only inspiration to other people while doing no harm. The mod might never get off the ground. But so what? It was an idea, and every idea should be treated with equal respect. From experience, these neophytes will learn to alter their posts in such a way to garner greater respect. I know how I started as a mod maker, and I have many warm memories of caring modmakers who has helped me along regardless of whether or not my idea was well presented. Our goal should be to turn everyone who has an interest in the subject into productive modmakers, not to ridicule or to drive them away.

Oh jesus, what does this have to do with the template? The Template is part of this standardization process which puts another barrier in the path of new modders.

I think the best way to go about Professor's mission is probably to make everyone read my guide to mod development.

**Halie Satanus** · October 30, 2006, 11:11 AM

No i disagree on everything you say here, for starters the whole reason for starting the great hall was to clean up the Mod threads section and so far it's working very well.

Now if someone wishes to start a thread with an idea for Dinosaurs vs Smurfs set in world war one we can't really stop them, with my amendments however we give ourselves a fall back position where once the novelty factor has worn off they can be deleted, this may not seem a problem at the moment but when Med2 is here the amount of non starters will grow quickly, as i said this will keep the mod threads clear so your next idea will be irrelevant.

Allow double posting in that forum so modmakers can bump up their threads as needed.

This is a terrible idea, imagine the bump wars that would start if everyone were to do this.

But you know what? That is how people learn. Such a proposition can provide only inspiration to other people while doing no harm. The mod might never get off the ground. But so what? It was an idea, and every idea should be treated with equal respect.

This is a fallacy, anyone can tell you that a bad idea gets very little positive feedback, in fact they are more likely to be ridiculed and die very quickly or incite flaming. What this idea can do is encourage members who really have the drive to make a mod think hard about what they want to do, it will also get people looking at good examples of proposals to see how to go about making one.

This being a prime example of a good proposal.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64187

And please don't think i'm attacking your input, i speak from experience of having a thread in the mod thread section for around 8 months which is why i thought up the Great Hall in the first place(i think it was me), i would have been a lot happier if it had existed when i started.